I’m a little sad about what happened with the “free will and determinism” question. I admit I was hoping for a little bit of a reaction when I mentioned it. (I guess that means I was trolling. Sorry.)

If I remember right, I intended to focus on voting. When I mentioned “voting on free will vs. determinism”, the “free will vs. determinism” was a bit of a red herring. I was hoping to prevoke a bit of an argument – but not between the “free will” supports vs. the “determinism” supporters. Instead, between the “voting” vs “experiment” supporters.

I expected people, such as myself, who think voting is a wonderful, to weigh in on how voting is a much better way to resolve this issue than beheading those who disagree with you. (Such as Johan van Oldenbarnevelt, beheaded in 1619 because he supported the “wrong side” of the free will vs. determinism issue).

In opposition, I expected people, such as myself, who think that voting is unnecessary when a single individual can verify, all by himself, that something is true. And even when he doesn’t know exactly how to verify some fact, someone can tell him some steps to take to confirm that fact. Then he can verify, all by himself, whether or not the proposed experiment will in fact discriminate between whether the claimed fact is true or false (or if it is a Wiki:NonSequitur). After that, he can, all by himself, conduct the proposed experiment, verifying that fact.

But the conversation turned from “voting” to “free will vs. determinism”. I had hoped to bring up Wikipedia:Newcomb's_paradox and Wikipedia:Predestination_paradoxes_in_fiction.

I am thinking about re-creating that page, nominating myself as PageMaintainer, and summarizing all the interesting ideas that were on the “free will and determinism” page before it was deleted. (But leaving the silly flame war deleted and forgotten – good riddance!).

Although I really ought to be working on higher-priority projects, such as the distributed wiki project.

Wow, didn’t realize that you had all of that research up at the distributed wiki project. I’d be glad to plug in anything I find in that space, if you want.

Also, today I am going to install sync.pl on both OBM WikiHive and kabo (if I can get savannah to load, page down now). I also noticed that MoinMoin can do this, too. Would be interesting to see if eventually MoinMoin can sync with OddMuse, plus maybe ProWiki eventually, too.

Update: it works! This is a test between 2 Wikis on 2 different servers.

Sam; Congratulations! I think this is a really big step forward.

Now that it really looks as if we have an effective technolgy solution, I’m going to start focusing on some of the Content issues that have been driving me crazy. Hopefully, I’ll be able to come up with some ‘guidelines’ that make sense to the Authors I expect to attract as contributors.

but not between the “free will” supports vs. the “determinism” supporters

I was actually trying to argue that Determinism is feasible. That is, determinism does not imply that everything is predictable, that people are predictable, that people do not make choices, and so on. When determinism as a concept itself was attacked, I moved into “OK, I’m defending determinism now” mode, and adopted the position for the purpose of the conversation.

Somewhere in there, the ball started going downhill, and fast.

If you took on PageMaintainer-ship for that page, that’d be really cool. Although, a lot of the page is not about Free Will vs. Determinism..!

BTW, that sync.pl was not my invention, just to clarify. It was the creation of someone else. But, it does work well. Also, on both obm and kabo, you can actually create your own mirror wiki in the hive instantly by creating a namepspace. So, in an OddMuse wiki that has sync.pl installed, you can type [[copy:http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/"your chosen name space here"/"your pagename here"]], and it will automatically create both the wiki and the page, instantly.

Hi all. Day-off today. No neuralgia crisis last night, think it could help to go back to BusinessAsUsual. Currently thinking to GeekHealth (stop smoking, bicycle commutation seeding group, neuralgia-crisis and migraine independant group, etc.) Anyway Sam, I’d be happy to migrate my personal bliki from MotherWiki. And how about thinking a new BarCampBank’s branch in a new [[copy:http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/BarCampBank/SandBox]] ;) Cheers.

xtof, sometime between now and Sunady, I’ll take a crack at migrating your wiki with the OddWiki migration process, and we an also transfer over your css. I’ll be sure and let you know.

About sync.pl and [[copy:]], it will only work from wikis that have sync.pl installed. Communitywiki.org, and OddWiki hive do not have it installed.

OBM wiki hive and kabo wiki hive do have sync.pl installed, though. So, you can type [[copy:]] and the destination URL on those, and it will work. And, you can copy from OBM and kabo to an OddMuse wiki that doesn’t have sync.pl installed, such as copying from OBM to Communitywiki. But, you can’t copy from Community to → anywhere, because sync.pl is not installed here.

Actually, for anyone reading this that may not have known, you can see which modules are installed on this wiki or any OddMuse wiki, by using http://www.communitywiki.org/en?action=version and htne you can search for the module by name on the OddMuse wiki, like this http://oddmuse.org/cgi-bin/wiki?search=big-brother.pl&lang=&dosearch=Go%21 to get an idea of how it works.

Anyway, xtof, I created http://socialsynergyweb.net/cgi-bin/wiki/BarCampBank/SandBox, that is a full blown wiki that you can do pretty much whatever you want with :)

And, I’ll try the migration. I’m interested to try it as I’ve never done it. But it should work well.

I’m also learning about MoinMoin, so I am settting up a MoinMoin hive here:


I think I am going to need to upgrade the memory on the socialsynergy.net server, though, to run Moin the way that i am doing it now. I am running it with mod_python, which takes up a lot of memory. So, http://socialsynergyweb.net/moin/wiki/FrontPage intially takes a long time to load up, I think because it is loading it all into mod_python. Once it initially loads, it then runs quite fast from page to page. Eventually hope to set up ProWiki, too.

Sam, thanks for all your efforts. Some headache coming now but be sure i’ll come back soon : I miss CommunityWiki-culture. Need to cure emotions… Let’s say my vibes and feelings here in Paris are quite good about the way on how OBM / BarCamp / CommunityWikiBank (WikiVenture?’s barcampbank and WikiThinkTank obsession!) could change things on a simple, local and efficient mode to make things happen. Happy to stay tuned via this opportunity to build a “Twitter-wikigang”. Please don’t consider me as a compulsive player ;) I’d just love to de-emphasize and give a breath of life to this FractalWiki which is becoming very boring (too focused). That’s just human. Will try to achive LiteracyOfHumanNature’s translation pehraps… Still need to learn social dynamics. In love with WikiHive and very hopeful for the future.

xtof, I am finding that even just your small amount feedback about what we have up at obm is very helpful. It really helps me to know that a page or a wiki structure may be hard to understand. Going to spend the next few days really thinking about wiki hive structure from PlainTalk perspective, from VisualLanguage perspective, etc. Trying to see if I can get http://openbusines.cc people to start using OBM and have them pointing people to it during their PeerInvestment event (looks like they’ve been folliwing my wiki! ;) “PeerInvest?)

Might be worthwhile to see if they are interested in BarCampbank?, OBM, openbusiness.cc cooperation. I’ve already emailed them to ask if they are :)

re: synchronization

Here are some notes on two projects which could be used for client-side wiki synchronization (which is different from and not as good as synchronization done by the servers; see below).

I heard a year ago that Martin Cleaver was working on using “unison” to synchronize wikis. I think this may be good way to go, as unison is a program with a kind of general framework for synchronizing things. I haven’t looked into it closely, though. I sort of remember that he was trying to synchronize a wiki with an offline copy, but I assume that if you could do that, you could sync two running wikis, too.

Also, if you want to copy things from one wiki to another (one way, not synchronizing), you can use WikiGateway. I’ve been occupied with work for the past year so it hasn’t been updated for awhile, but lemme know if you want to use it and need help or a bugfix or feature or whatever. One of the demo applications included with the full WikiGateway source tarball is a rudimentary “wikicp” command.

Of course, one thing that I’d like to add to WikiGateway someday would be bidirectional synchronization.

Client-side synchronization would never be as good as the sync module, though, because if the wiki server doesn’t know that it is being synchronized, then synchronization can only happen every now and then, when the synchronization client is run, as opposed to each time the page is edited. Which means that it’s possible for both synchronized copies to be independently edited before the next sync. Which makes it difficult to know what to do on the next sync (do you automatically merge the two copies?).


Also note that I had a prototype module installed which checked wiki pages into a Subversion repository every now and then, merged them with changes made by other Subversion users (ie. other people or wikis), and posted updates back to the site. It never got used much, so it got switched off again.

Is the SVN module source publicly available? Not that I’m about to run it, but I’d like to take a look. thx

Thanks Bayle and Alex for these pointers. I’ve been reading about WikiGateway in posts here and there online from the past couple of years.

I’ll echo Bayle’s interest in SVN wiki sync. Sounds very interesting, might be something worth trying out over the next couple of weeks as a candidate for what DavidCary, HansWobbe, myself and others have been discussing.

There was a cron-job running every 24h that ran raw-wiki, svn-wiki, and svn update:

    cd $HOME/communitywiki.org
    cd raw
    $HOME/bin/svn-wiki > /dev/null
    svn update > /dev/null

raw-wiki would put a raw wiki text copy of every page in a directory.

svn-wiki would go through the pages in the wiki and if the raw wiki text was newer, it would post it to the wiki. Then it would run svn status and svn add any new wiki pages. And finally it would run svn commit.


Btw, Sam, if you haven’t seen them yet you may be interested in:

Bayle: Now that I have a better appreciation of your WikiGateway functions, I think I should ask if you are thinking of extending it to handle OddMuse?

It already does. Although I haven’t tested it on OddMuse in over a year, so there may be bit rot.


Define external redirect: BarCampbank PeerInvest WikiVenture

EditNearLinks: OddWiki ProWiki SandBox BusinessAsUsual FractalWiki BarCampBank MoinMoin OddMuse WikiThinkTank