2007-11-27 en

log of a conversation between SamRose and LionKimbro

I’ve put “:star: STAR” in the text, to mark crescendos.


Samuel: Wow, David Korten is really labor-intensive to work with [smile]

me: heh… What’s he have you doing?

Samuel: I am recreating his site in Drupal.

me: wOw..! That’s a big undertaking!

Samuel: it just takes a lot of explaining, and explaining, and explaining, and explaining that is the hardest part

me: What kind of stuff are you explaining?

Samuel: I am almost done making the site

He is basically wanting to know how to keep the site updated himself, etc.

me: Oh, that’s good!

Samuel: yeah, he is learning

me: Well, I’m glad you’re able to work with him so well; I’ve had a really hard time of it, personally.

Samuel: it’s just been really intense, because he wants to be able to adjust and control everything he sees, and It’s difficult sometimes to exlpain to him why he can’t always control it all from his end (as opposed to hacking php or css for instance)

me: ah… Right, …

Samuel: I have found him difficult to work with, too, but something compelling me to keep working with him (not sure what it is) [smile]

me: Well, it’s probably something good.

His program is great.

And it’s probably educational to work with someone so high-powered.

Samuel: I have worked with clients like him before, so it’s not too big of a deal

me: And the people around him are interesting, too.

Samuel: to deal with his nature

i have not yet met too many of the people around him

me: It hasn’t been easy to connect with people around him--

in meetings, it’s sort of – he’s the center of the wheel.

Samuel: The problem is they have isolated themselves

me: There’s not much cross-conversation.

Samuel: and they have put him on a pedastal, and I think he’s gotten used to that pedastal

me: What do you mean by “isolated themselves,” and “the problem?”

I would agree with that, …

Samuel: “the problem”: why it’s hard to easily connect

me: One of the interesting things I heard at the storyfield conference,

Samuel: with them

me: from two people directly, and an unspoken sense around it, …

…was: “Dis-illusionment about our leadership.”

Samuel: “isolated themselves” from the growing networks of people interested in similar things out there

me: Which I think is a good thing; People were still committed to the work.

Compare/contrast RMS/ESR.

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Samuel: yeah, I think people are starting to shift from what I’ll call being “guru addictred” to being more interested in becoming self sufficient

me: Or, “network-sufficient.”

Samuel: yeah

with the need for a “guru” which was a big thing in the 90’s

me: I think there’s still an important space for gurus.

I’ve been looking at the Federation of Damanhur lately, and I don’t think it’d exist without Falco.

Samuel: yes, but I am also glad for new focus on network-sufficiency,there was too much focus on gurus before, IMO

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me: Can I turn the conversation in a funny direction? This is something emerging out for me, and I’m curious about what you think.

Samuel: sure

me: “Indigenous modes of thought.”

When I was at the storyfield conference, there was a sentence someone said,

Skye Burn, actually; She leads various bodies of UNESCO, or something like that--

she said that: “Reinclusion of indigenous thinking is essential to what we are doing here.”

Or something like that.

Since then, I met a woman who went to Mila (in Africa, and I may have the name wrong,) and then just now I’m looking at the Federation of Damanhur.

And also remembering my experiences at the Evolutionary Salons, and the Storyfield Conference.

I think that there’s something “here,” that’s clearly working.

These people at Damanhur are totally nuts, but look at what they do, and look at their thoughts that really matter-

Samuel: I need to check out damanhur

me: and it’s totally amazing.

Most communes in the US, they collapse, or they suffer attrition, and float at about 100 people (like Twin Oaks, East Winds, …) the people are cynical and frustrated and encapsulated and so on.

Samuel: US culture spent a lot of time wiping out, or pushing down “Indigenous thinking”

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me: But, at Damanhur, they’re at 1,000 people, have very close relationships with cities and neighboring authorities, their coins are accepted at nearby stores, they make beautiful works of art, use solar power and work for the environment, and there’s an enormous wait list to get in. They’re not in a rush to grow, though they are growing and continuing to grow.

Samuel: what is the difference? How did they succeed where others failed?

me: I don’t know!

That’s why Phil & I are going to take a trip there.

Phil has visited and lived in about 40-100 communes.

Samuel: Is it because they were simply able to get more participants?

me: He’s always visiting or living in one, and he’s really surprised about Damanhur as well.

I don’t think so--

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I think it has to do with their philosophy – excuse me, – spirituality.

I mean, … When you go looking over it, I think you’ll see it.

The say things like,

Samuel: Would you say they are “cult”-like?

me: “If the natural spiritual creativity within each individual is cultivated and cherished and goes into expression, the society will be healthy.”

They are cult-like, but not like we think of usually.

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They’re not encapsulated.

They engage the world around them, and such.

Samuel: So, they are not a cult

me: They don’t say that the world’s going to end;

Samuel: 9t least int he way that i define a “cult”)

me: They say that there’s the threat of environmental collapse, and they’re going to create positive energies that are going to help counterbalance that.

Another label could be “spiritual community.”

When you investigate Damanhur, check out this paper:

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http://www.laetusinpraesens.org/docs00s/horus.php

It’s not high up in Google, but it’s one you particularly would get stuff out of, I think.

Anyways, this is something that I am looking at, and thinking about trying to recreate, in a context more amenable to scientific thinking and so on.

Saturday House has proven to me that societies can be grown and so on.

Samuel: I suspect that the motivation of many damahur participants might be different than the saturday house people, ut I could be wrong

me: No, it’s true;

What I mean is--

I think that people are ready together and do things together.

Samuel: Damanhur really looks more like “church”-type motivations from what I can see

me: I think I can “start a church,” and so on.

Samuel: saturday house is maybe more human-centric

me: I think I know how to do that now, I mean. Yes, it would be different than Saturday House.

Saturday House is different; Much more individualistic centered.

(That said, I suspect Saturday House people would be interested.)

Samuel: But you can grow both networks, they would jst be organized differently, conencted differently. Filled with people with different motivations

me: I’m more interested in making a group of groups.

There’s a few ways I see of going forwards.

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Samuel: yeah, that group of groups is something I am working towards, too

me: I am considering trying to see if I can grow things such that the different groups in Seattle use the same place.

So, an immediate first step would be:

To invite all the Seattle geek groups to use our space, whenever they have trouble finding one.

And then I’m thinking about visiting the Seattle Sustainability community in Ballard, which is huge, (probably already a thousand, many thousand people,) and pitching “Saturday House for Ballard,” and I think that would succeed and go far, and really connect their communities more viscerally, which are already somewhat connected;

I mean, we have people just– They go home, and “sustainability, sustainability, sustainability,” that’s all they think about.

So if they had a regular space with lots of other likemindeds, I think they could really put that to use.

They just need the idea of it, I think.

Samuel: it’s a good idea

I think it will work

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One of the things I think I realized, also, is that “whuffie” and “community currency” are rally meant for these group-to-group netoworks, and you may be able to apply those to help solidify trust

me: (buuuut, my other idea, is to make a Seattle-Local, Internet/Noosphere focused Damanhur… Rather than building underground temples, building software, MetaphysicalCode, for communications…)

Samuel: among groups

me: Oh!

I LOVED the line of thought of--

“Money is about how far people are from you.”

YEAH!

Inter-group currency!

That would follow, naturally, from the theory.

Perhaps dollars themed to the group that you come from, that are more based on flavors, or something;

“Tech-community dollars” redeemable for tech-support, …

Syndicalist Money. [smile]

Samuel: inter-group currency, and inter-group “whuffie” a kind of “thanking” system, that lets peopel know who they can trust (combines thanking with reputation)

me: Yeeeeeeesssss…

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Samuel: this guy has sime insights http://regenerosity.org

me: I’ve seen that URL before… checking…

How are those used outside the community?

I don’t get how this connects with that.

Sent at 2:29 PM on Tuesday

Samuel: my little theory is that these systems can be used as a way for group-to-group “exchanges”, gifts, etc

Sent at 2:30 PM on Tuesday

me: Does Regenerosity explain that concept, or is that your addition?

I like the group-group currency concept.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

Samuel: it is my addition

me: [wink]

You need to write that up.

Samuel: i should have explained that

me: Let’s see… a framing question…

“How do groups trade with one another?”

“How do communities trade with one another?”

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Samuel: “how do groups learn to trust one another?”

me: Then the internal “who honors this” question, is answered through --

AHHhhh…

Yeeeeees.

“How do groups learn to trust one another?”

Samuel: I like all questions

trade and trust

Plus

me: InterCommunityCooperation

Samuel: “How do grous learn to communicate with each other?” (like, how do they reconcile their “link languages”?)

me: I don’t know that they do!

I have a hard enough time communicating with Helmut Leitner, as it is!

Samuel: Ok, lets make that page InterCommunityCooperation

me: http://communitywiki.org/en/InterCommunityCooperation

It’s an olde page.

Samuel: err, ok

[smile]

I think that “trade” is one easy way to start group-to-group ball rolling not all groups live for ever, and most change over time

me: I think it is our destiny and fate to learn how to connect groups.

I agree w/ you, re: the Trade.

Samuel: maybe there are other ways to ‘bootstrap” but trade is one fo the first that comes to mind…

me: In the page you write, let’s keep that question in the hand-

“How to get groups trusting one another?”

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Alex asks, “What’s the benefit?”

“Why would I want to interact with people in another group?”

Alex is the necessary pessimist.

I don’t remember where and how it was asked, but it was.

One of the ways --

Samuel: I answer “Only you can answer that question…” [smile]

me: Robert Steele contacted us all, and said, I’m going to publish a book. Be in it!

So the invitation and the book were critical techniques.

Samuel: yeah, projects!

me: Leadership, too.

Initiative and so on.

Framing the thing.

Samuel: Alex is right, thinking about “what’s in it for me” will pull in people, when doing it

me: <nod>

Samuel: but group to group is different than individual motivations

it may be limited

me: <nod>

Samuel: but powerful never the less in it’s areas of application

me: It also helps if the group has a body.

nod

For example, “who honors the groups currency?”

Samuel: “body”?

me: Is it Lion?

Sam?

By body I mean: “formal members, formal communications channel, formal decision making”

By formal I don’t mean…

I mean, that there’s “one place”

Samuel: yeah, makes sense

me: so that you can ask the group a question, and such.

We’re “semi-connected” online.

Samuel: like CommunityWikiConstitution

me: But I think we can still do this;

“If someone comes around asking for a return on this debt, could you cover it for me?”

“I’ll pay you back.”

So within the community, it’s thanks-based favor-based;

Samuel: I see

me: Between communities, there are inter-community IOUs?

shrug

I don’t know what you’re envisioning specifically, but I like the general approach.

I’d be interested in seeing and trying out approaches.

Samuel: there is an opening for an infrastrucutre that lets communities co-govern this or, co-back it

Sent at 2:43 PM on Tuesday

Samuel: the infrastructure could be an “open standard” kind of thing, supplemented by technology, but based in mutual trust, and only employed when needed beyond each group.

me: I’d be into that, but--

I have difficulty getting groups to even think of themselves as groups..!

Samuel: ripple pay is kind of touching on the idea

me: <nod>

Samuel: ripple pay is actually a great model, because it lets groups be more liquid

me: <nod>

Samuel: it works more in networks. but formal “groups” could be the fall back

me: Well, imagine if I was in Saturday House.

I’m a geek.

Samuel: this is kind of like the religious health insurance deal

me: I go to the group that does sustainability, and I buy my groceries from them.

I give them a geek IOU.

They call Saturday House with a question, someone answers.

Offers tech support.

Part of the grocery bill I racked up is paid off.

That person says to me, “I just paid half your groceries.”

I say, “thanks!”

I owe that person, on an internal to the group informal basis.

Not sure it requires group formality, it does require that the group goes, “We answer tech support calls in return for IOUs racked up by our members.”

Samuel: maybe you would just have to be a member of recognized to get “in” to the system?

me: ?

Samuel: If the system is extended beyond satruday house group

let me give you an eample

from the real world

me: ok [smile]

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Samuel: there is a religious health cost donation system that exists right now all over the use US

me: yes

Samuel: to get “in” to this system, you have to be partof a recognized church

me: ah…

Samuel: once you are “in” then members of the system simply mail their check to wherever the money is needed, in this case, based on a newsletter

in the case of what we are talking about

Sent at 2:51 PM on Tuesday

Samuel: perhaps many groups could decide to be the “backers” of IOU’s, and this would allow an ecology of IOU’s, or community currency, or even pooling of actual currency, among groups that decidet o trust each other

me: yep

yep yep yep

Dana and her army of artists

Sent at 2:53 PM on Tuesday

Samuel: maybe it would een be possible to just make a “merging” or meta currency, that equalizes value from group to group?

but first, the groups have to actually decide to cooperate

me: <nod>

In fact--

You know, I just realized;

This was how the Seattle groups did it in the 70s/80s!

Samuel: I recommend that there can be multiple ways to cooperate: gifts, bartering, pooling resources, etc

me: It was store-to-store, rather than all individual based.

Samuel: or even outright buying. really that is how they did it in Seattle? I think that tehe ideas are more popular during hardere economic times (like the 70’s 80’s and now… [smile]

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me: http://seattle.wikia.com/wiki/Community_currency

I didn’t realize it at the time, but it makes sense now--

That was a group-to-group currency.

Samuel: we are the lowest economy in the nation here in Michigan, and people are really interested in these ideas here, even ifthey don’t know how to realize them

US currency is a group to group currecny on international level

me: “But I know barter was reliably in place all over Seattle by 1978, and died out in approximately 1985. Some key players in the Seattle alternative/underground culture were involved in this experiment, as were some of Seattle’s most historic and beloved venues, including the Blue Moon, the Fabulous Rainbow, the Neptune Theater, Cellophane Square, Cause Celebre, Left Bank Books, and more.”

Those names don’t mean anything to you, but I see all those places day-to-day.

Samuel: cool..

lots of sub culture stores

“sub” not meaning lesser than, but “hidden from mainstream” maybe

me: “But what about records, beer, movies, ice cream and cool leftist buttons and posters? For those necessities, we had pizza barter slips. We could always trade pizza for beer at the Blue Moon, as well as homemade ice cream in the summers, from Cause Celebre.”

Lots of stories of trades there.

So, I think this group->group idea is right.

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But, I think there’s something else that we need, something else that we need to figure out.

I don’t know what it is.

But the “group-to-group” seems to me to be a level-up.

Samuel: the thing that I think makes these die off is that th epeople who trusted each other drifted off or faded out of the systems, and ther ewas nothing there to help newcomers get that good, warm secure feeling

a feeling of belonging to something that is working, and solving problems

me: Interesting!

Samuel: that is what is needed

me: Yes.

Samuel: These system crest and die,

me: They are “not sustainable.”

We need a sustainability.

Samuel: because no one ever addresses the sustainability

me: Um, …

Well, I have some timid concepts of how to do it.

Samuel: ok

me: Evolutionary Spirituality. (ulp!)

Maybe not the best response.

Samuel: that will resonate with some for sure

me: <nod>

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I guess that– when it gets down to it,

people have to have a sense that they’re doing something with others.

Samuel: also, there may be some messages within that, that will resonae further

me: Or participating in something with others.

Samuel: err, yeah you are right

[smile]

me: Omega Point.

Think of Open Source.

There’s the vision of Free Software inside.

At the risk of being ‘ligious,

The Omega Point does seem to be the End Point.

The Omega Point is TeilhardDeChardin’s idea, that at the natural end of the concept of love, the natural end point, of carrying that “idea” forwards, is Universal Love.

Which he called the “omega point,” and he said stuff like: “Christ is realized in the Omega Point,” and by “realized,” he meant, “made real.”

Sent at 3:06 PM on Tuesday

me: I think there are progressions of doing-with-others before the Omega point, though, by TeilhardDeChardin’s conception.

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Samuel: what Graves called “the Never Ending Quest” for humans, who, just when they think hey have come close to that “point” realize there is a whole new level of complexity in the universe they never knew before, with a whole new “point” to work towards

me: (nod)

That sounds right to me. I like criticism of finality.

I just bought 4 TeilhardDeChardin’s to study;

Samuel: I think we are onto something here

me: <nod>

We seriously need to write this up.

Samuel: maybe we can copy this to CW for now?

me: We’ve talked about several jewels here in this conversation.

Yes, sure. Do you mind if I include the Korten?

Samuel: hmm…maybe not. If that is ok

nornally I wouldn’t mind, but someting tells me to could be a bad idea…

me: OK; But personally speaking, it’s exactly what I’d say to him in front of him, or say to someone else in front of him.

Honestly, I’d be amazed if he heard about it.

In fact, I’d be ecstatic.

I will honor your request, but really-

Samuel: ok, include it then [smile]

 me: I've been standing right in front of him, trying to communicate something, and he's just, "Nope nope nope, none of that, next on the agenda."

ok [smile]

Samuel: I don’t really care, it’s cool

me: ok [smile]

Samuel: please do include the whole thing

me: I will.

It sounds like this meeting is ajourned?

We have a lot to think about, and then write up.

Samuel: yeah, I amsure you have to get back to work

me: yes I do

Samuel: so do I. Will meet you on CW

me: Take care!

[smile]

Samuel: later!

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