Lion talked with ThomasWaldman?, Sheep, and BrianTempleton?. TW seemed skeptical, Sheep & BPT thought it was a good idea.




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 <lion> Request for Comment / Feedback:
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 <ThomasWaldman2> lion: hi :)
 <lion> ThomasWaldman2: Howdy!
 <lion> Long time no see. {:)}=
 <ThomasWaldman2> what problem exactly are you trying to solve with that?
 <lion> Rapid entry. Community programmability. blah blah blah blah blah.
 <lion> There's a ton of things this would make easier.
 <lion> Problem: I want to edit SVG with friends.
 <lion> The ContentRouting problem is too severe, though. (
 <lion> Among a zillion other things, this substantially works to solve the problem.
 <lion> (You just edit the SVG file you have on your disk.)
 <sheep_> lion: i think inkscape has that wihiteboard extension...
 <lion> Yep, it does. Have you used it?
 <lion> I haven't. We've been meaning to, for like, a month, on CW,
 <lion> but we've never decided to go through the several hours it would take to get us on the page and editing a document together.
 <sheep_> lion: no, but I have used a similar thing in coccinella
 <lion> We have more collaboration over images by uploading and downloading SVG images to the wiki (which is excruciatingly difficult,) than we've had via live xfer.
 <lion> Yes, I've used coccinella several times, it's very nice.
 <lion> But we're not talking about live collaborations here,
 <lion> where you have to establish a bridge manually;
 <lion> one of the things the CommunityRepository does is make it easy to edit SVG images over time with others.
 <lion> (That's just one effect of it.)
 <ThomasWaldman2> so what you want is easy collaboration via a VCS, is that the main thing?
 * Cctoide has a dilemma
 <Cctoide> I can't pick between MoinMoin and DokuWiki :\
 <lion> ThomasWaldman2: There's not one thing that I want.
  CowboyDan ChanServ C-Keen Cctoide
 <lion> Cctoide: Moin!
 <lion> {;D}=
 --- ThomasWaldman2 is now known as ThomasWaldmann
 <lion> ThomasWaldmann: Another thing we want is community programmability.
 <lion> People can work on EMACS major modes together, and edit the renderers together.
 <Cctoide> DokuWiki is looking better :P
 <lion> Right now, on CW, we have to keep working through Alex.
 <ThomasWaldmann> lion: the problem is there are lots of tools and it is unclear what you want to solve
 <lion> Hm;
 <sheep_> Cctoide: have you checked out the moin's themes?
 <ThomasWaldmann> your want to use emacs, darcs, sql, svg, ....
 <lion> Maybe the problem is that you're just not a CW person, and don't understand the myriad things we want to do.
 <lion> There's no *one* thing we want to solve here.
 <sheep_> like CanonCat?
 <Cctoide> Moin has the ready-to-go DesktopEdition, but that's not really a priority as I want to show it to people
 <lion> I just noticed that if we do this arrangement, we can nail a bunch of problems, at the expense of some things that we hold dear.
 <Cctoide> also, I want something that doesn't stick to CamelCase too much
 <lion> (Likely, we would use a CommunityRepository, and the CommunityWiki, side by side.)
 <sheep_> lion: so repostory would be mainly for uploading the files?
 <Cctoide> An important thing for me is the user control
 <Cctoide> I want to be the only one editing things
 <Cctoide> Possibly opening up talk pages for other people to leave comments
 <sheep_> Cctoide: 'user control' as in 'controlling the users' or 'let the users control it' ? ;)
 <lion> sheep_: It'd be the main interface.
 <sheep_> Cctoide: Maybe check out the cms-es, they are more suited for control freaks ;)
 <lion> sheep_: That is, we would directly work on the files in the repository.
 <Cctoide> I need a wiki, not a CMS ;)
 <lion> The website generated by the repository would be rendered, regularly.
  CowboyDan ChanServ C-Keen Cctoide
 <lion> Cctoide: I know; Sorry, there are two conversations here.
 <sheep_> lion: so it's a wiki with repositiory backend?
 <lion> sheep_: It's a repository with a website rendered out from it nightly, more like.
 <Cctoide> lion: indeed
 <sheep_> sheep_: like sf and others?
 <lion> sheep_: ?
 <sheep_> source forge
 <lion> sheep_: I understand that part, but:
 <sheep_> it has a www interface to the repository
 <lion> sheep_: ah, no-
 <lion> sheep_: Imagine a wiki that,
 <lion> sheep_: the people worked on the pages in the store, directly.
 <lion> sheep_: Then the pages were rendered out in myriad ways.
 <sheep_> it's called a web page :D
 <lion> sheep_: Well, right, but: Use nice text formats, rather than HTML. {:)}=
 <lion> Just render the HTML automatically from the text formats.
 <lion> (Like a wiki does.)
 <sheep_> I did something like this for my home page some time ago
 <sheep_> didn't like it
 <lion> How come?
 <lion> (and what do you do now?)
 <sheep_> I tweaked the html generator all the time, chaning the syntax, and then had to re-write all the text files
 <lion> Ah... Yes.
 <sheep_> now it's a bunch of hand-written html files
 <sheep_> html isn't that hard to write by hand
 <lion> You could do hand-written HTML files here, too.
 <lion> But for things that are more "scratch," more dynamic, being changed all the time by lots of people, etc., etc.,...
 <lion> Things where you're collaborating; I suspect that would get in the way.
 <lion> Though, who knows- with good CSS...
 <sheep_> :)
 <lion> OR, you could just have an engine that replaces the text with HTML!
 <lion> So, people write in their notes with whatever format of the day it is,
 <sheep_> docbook for exmaple
 <lion> and then the system replaces it with the styled HTML, in place.
 <lion> (Perhaps once a week, or something, automatically.)
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 <sheep_> ah, so there is also staging
 <lion> Likely.
 <lion> Someone has to host the webpages, in the end.
 <iMagNum> Hello, Is there any wiki software that I can run on my desktop so that I can just organize my plans using this sort of tools?
 <lion> (Though people could run their local ones also, for testing, or whatever.)
 <iMagNum> I dont want other people to read what I add to my own wiki, here.
 <lion> iMagNum: FC5 comes with one installed by default called um...
 <Cctoide> Any DokuWiki users here, BTW?
 * lion rummages through his menu hierarchy
 <lion> "TomBoy Notes."
 <iMagNum> I cant find fc5 on google... are you sure it is the right name?
 <lion> Oh, it's "Fedora Core 5." Don't worry about that- just look up "Tomboy Notes."
 <iMagNum> ok
 <iMagNum> damn, its for linux... im on Windows XP
 <sheep_> isn;'t it .net?
 <iMagNum> its c#, but made for linux, it says
 <sheep_> iMagNum: good reason to switch :D
 <iMagNum> lemme check again, i was on wikipedia
 <sheep_> iMagNum: MoinMoin DesktopEdition, Tiddlywiki
 <iMagNum> /
 <iMagNum> Tomboy is a desktop note-taking application for Linux and Unix.
 <lion> Oh yah! TiddlyWiki!
 <lion> iMagNum: TiddlyWiki's a great tool.
 <iMagNum> im wondering if i should just set up a personal server and install the same wiki as wikipedia instead
 <lion> iMagNum: It works on *everything.*
 <lion> Nah nah nah.
 <lion> MediaWiki is made to be an Encyclopedia. All kinds of stuff that'll get in your way.
 <sheep_> mediawiki is for encyclopedias :/
 <lion> Check out TiddlyWiki!
 <iMagNum> yes, checking it out
 <lion> It's *so basic.*
 <lion> Very powerful.
 <lion> Just download it, and start playing with it.
 <lion> Then hit "save."
 <sheep_> or you could use one of the 'wiki' extensions to vim or emacs :)
 <iMagNum> You know what I really want? I want to be able to [[create any link i want]] and upon clicking the link, i get to a new page. Yet HTML editors are too stupid to do something so simple.
 <iMagNum> I dont wana have to create files and such. I wanna use it like if I were on wikipedia, basically.
 <sheep_> iMagNum: tiddlywiki should be ok then
 <iMagNum> ok
 <sheep_> iMagNum: and you can make it awiki-on-a-stick and take it everywhere with you on a pendrive
 <iMagNum> haha that's a hilarious terminlogoly
 <iMagNum> wiki-on-a-stick!
 <iMagNum> its cute
 <sheep_> yeah
 <lion> sheep_: We could use a wiki extension with the CommunityRepository.
 <lion> sheep_: We could use a wiki extension (to EMACS) with the CommunityRepository.
 <sheep_> ptfu emacs :(
 <iMagNum> wow, the tidly wiki site is incompatible with firefox, i think
 <sheep_> iMagNum: enable js
 <iMagNum> the download link acts funny
 <iMagNum> it is enabled :(
 <sheep_> :/
 <iMagNum> Nah, I think the website is broken actually.
 <iMagNum> Can you go there and click the download link on the right menu please
 <iMagNum> Tell me what happens
 <iMagNum> None of the links work! On both browsers...
 <sheep_> :/
 <sheep_> mayb it interferes with one of your extensions?
 <sheep_> it works good for me
 <iMagNum> No extensions here.
 <iMagNum> I click the links, a window appears and disapears.
 <sheep_> a window?
 <iMagNum> Can you give me a direct link to the download please?
 <iMagNum> A javascript animation of some sort.
 <iMagNum> Maybe because I have the jdk5?
 <sheep_> no, it's because you have that tiddler opened already
 <sheep_> <-- save that
 <sheep_> tiddlywiki is a single html file
 <sheep_> with tiddlers
 <iMagNum> ih
 <iMagNum> oh
 <iMagNum> I get it...
 <sheep_> coo, eh?
 <sheep_> cool
 <iMagNum> I panicked when the download didnt work as it normally does so I did not bother to read :)
 <iMagNum> Yes, its cool, although jacob nielsen would have a heart attack
 <sheep_> lol
 <sheep_> actually, it's pretty well-written js
 <iMagNum> whoa its magic
 <iMagNum> yes, it looks really cool now
 <iMagNum> Wait, I need to remember to save every time right
 <sheep_> yes, altrought I recall an autosave option
 <iMagNum> ok
 <iMagNum> yes there is
 <iMagNum> this is really cool
 <iMagNum> the first useful javascript program i have seen
 <EarleMartin> TiddlyWiki is scary JS voodoo, man
 <iMagNum> well thanks for the help guys, i have to go, bye
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 <sheep_> lion: about that repository, I imagine you'd want a way to 'preview' the results of your changes before commiting
 <lion> yes.
 <lion> I would think you'd be able to target the renderer to a portion.
 <lion> Make something in EMACS so that when you save,
 <lion> it automatically directs the renderer to run,
 <sheep_> why, oh why emacs? ;)
 <lion> and directs a web browser to open the rendered page.
 <lion> A few reasons:
 <lion> * AlexSchroeder is a key community member, and runs the EMACS wiki.
 <lion> * EMACS is programmable.
 <lion> * a bunch of us know EMACS.
 <lion> I'm thinking a major benefit of this system will be the community programmability.
 <lion> That is, the major modes to edit our pages will be part of the repository.
 <lion> It would likely be based on an EMACS wiki major mode, I would think.
 <sheep_> I'm just whining, I know it's powerful :)
 <lion> I saw something incredible one day:
 <lion> I saw a guy's 20+ years work in progress.
 <EarleMartin> I misread that as "AlexSchroeder is programmable."
 <lion> It was a text editor;
 <lion> <laugh>
 <lion> And it had all these hypertext features,
 <lion> (transclusions, hyperlinks, backwards hyperlinks, and so on,)
 <lion> but it also included micro-notations within the "buttons,"
 <lion> which was based on APL.
 <sheep_> ouch
 <lion> well hang on a moment;
 <lion> If you think about it, there are some interesting cross-over possibilities between APL & wiki, after all..!
 <lion> So, for example,
 <lion> he showed me how to make a "button" in his system with just 10 keystrokes.
 <lion> It was like:
 <lion> ||-(insert line noise here)-||
 <lion> the thing is, the line noise was only 6 characters,
 <lion> and ended up meaning: Jump to file X, and jump to the end of it.
 <sheep_> like vim :)
 <lion> (Incidentally, the ||- was IBM ASCII encoding..! He'd memorized all the ASCII codes long ago, and entered them in with ALT sequences.)
 <lion> In vim, you can construct micro-execution sequences?
 <sheep_> lion: using vim consists of writing micor-execution sequences :)
 <lion> Ah, well, ...
 <lion> I know enough vim to know that. {;)}=
 <lion> I hate my "`" key now.
 <lion> {;D}=
 <lion> Escape Meta Alt Control Shift is much more pleasing to me.
 <lion> sheep_: So basically, we'd be hucking the web as our interface,
 <lion> and replacing it with (a) text editor.
 <lion> Programming the website's script would be largely replaced by programming the text editor.
 <sheep_> lion: I still think doing it with usual bunch of tools is just simplier and quicker
 <lion> sheep_: Which tools?
 <lion> AJAX-emacs?
 <sheep_> lion: for exmaple, vim, cvs, docbook
 <lion> Oh, well;
 <sheep_> lion: and a bunch of makefiles
 <lion> vim's fine, if it's programmable.
 <lion> makefiles are fine;
 <lion> But why use CVS, rather than darcs?
 <sheep_> I mean: why construct a system out of it?
 <lion> docbook can be applied to parts of the system
 <lion> sheep_: system?
 <sheep_> sheep_: any version system is fine
 <lion> I don't understand.
 <lion> (I think I'm talking about what you're saying.)
 <lion> You use a ton of tools to make this work.
 <sheep_> lion: you're writing about gluing together a bunch of tools with scripts to form a huge tool
 <lion> Whether you use EMACS, or vim, whatever-
 <lion> I don't know if I'd call the complete assembly, a "tool."
 <lion> Rather, I'd call it: "The CommunityRepository."
 <lion> It's not generic, I don't believe.
 <sheep_> semantics
 <lion> It's not a distribution.
 <lion> Yes, yes: semantics- I'm trying to get at the meaning of the distinction you are communicating.
 <lion> "Why construct a system out of it?"
 <lion> what did you mean?
 <sheep_> lion: intead of gluing it all together with scripts, so that it works automagically, why not just set up a repository and allow peaople to use it as they want, without any automation?
 <lion> They *can* use it however they want.
 <sheep_> lion: they *have* to know how to use these tools anyways
 <lion> But inevitably, some of us are going to want automations.
 <lion> I mean, I would want it from the start-
 <lion> to render web pages.
 * lion still doesn't understand.
 <sheep_> I probably don't understand your idea :/
 <lion> Hm, ...
 <lion> It's just:
 <lion> You make a repository.
 <lion> People put stuff in it.
 <lion> It's shared,
 <lion> you can go looking through other people's individual contributions,
 <lion> and there are places for groups,
 <lion> and the people in the groups work on their stuff in there,
 <lion> and we render content out from there, and so on.
 <lion> If anything, this is a "soft technology," rather than a "hard technology."
 <sheep_> ah, I thought you mean something larger :)
 <lion> This is for, like, CommunityWiki (our group,) or MeatballWiki, or whoever wants to participate, really.
 <lion> Since, in CW, we like wiki, we like making HyperText together, we like TheoryBuilding,
 <lion> we will likely make a system out of editors and scripts, so that we can navigate hyperlinks from within the editor,
 <lion> and we will likely make scripts to generate HTML from our text files, and so on,
 <lion> like in a wiki.
 <sheep_> so for starts it's just a repository and the html-generating-script run from a cron?
 <lion> likely, or, perhaps, triggered by commits
 <lion> you perform a commit, somethings watching, it generates the web page and a new RecentChanges or whatever
 <lion> sheep_: Do you mind if I post this log to CW?
 <sheep_> lion: not at all

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