EditThisPage ; ~. community-wiki-bank .~
We should conduct a real experiment into WhatIsMoney & AlternativeCurrency, by creating a CommunityWikiBank (CWB). This proposal is quite serious, hence there is a “Pledges” section under which individuals can indictate their willingness to “deposit” funds, once the Terms & Conditions required for the Bank’s operation have been established.
At present, existing discussions on this page are raising good questions. Ideally, we will be able to summarize these in a way that will support the development of an acceptable set of “Contract”(s) that capture the spirit of the Trust that the various participants have in each other and in the resulting Confidence in the CWB.
~. A few key points…~
copied from Meatball…
2007-05-29 - Fridemar…
I am prepared to accept this offer and its attendant responsibilities.
This means that…
I guess I simply don’t know enough to let “sleeping dogs lie”; so I’m going to start very slowly refactoring these pages to see what I think should be updated, discarded, salvaged, …
For the record, my motives include…
Concepts to be incorporated include…
hans: 1,000 CAD initial pledge
sigi: 500 EUR
ted: 500 USD
mattis: 100 EUR
xtof : 500 EUR
lion: 1,000 USD ($0 immediately, see CwbLedger)
helmut: 0 USD (temporarily redrawn because the concept stagnates)
alex : 0 USD
luigi: 600 EUR (donations (see journal) for allowing “me and others who understand less than me” to grasp in a practical down to earth way what is going on here)
sam: 50 USD
fridemar: potentially 300,000 (three hundert thousand) USD, based on a percentage of the sale of the top domain SocialCommonWealth?.Com,.net, .info, .biz. and other domains. Plan is described on MeatballWiki:SocialCommonWealth .
david: 1 000 USD
Hans .. the added value to the base monetary value of some offer is the key. This added value comes from the involvement of the community peers with their value enhancing open contributions. Each peer should make their claims clear in their goal- and interest-statements, such that peers can pay each other with their public collaboration efforts on working and testing out concepts. At last they may sell as their transaction object their whole contributions to some buyer, who pays them, so to say, their initial work and the vision, they have created, in the hope that s/he can further enhance the value by more resources, s/he owns. – FridemarPache
I have already had several business associates approach me about this concept, even at this (premature) early stage. They are already asking questions that no one person can answer. As a result I have had to suggest that we will try to create a structure that can provide answers. For the moment, I believe it will be adequate to form sub-committee (let’s call it a Board Of Directors, after all, a lot of work has already been done for us if we at least start by copying the “best practices” of the existing Banks that will be our inevitable competitors.)
“Board Of Directors”: yes, let us make a group named bod1 . in wikiland all groups are consense-groups . so, if there are too big differences, then there are two or more groups . each group manages its own realm .
for the whole, there is the wiki-tree (xtof: wiki-gouvernance) . - sigi
If we incorporate the CommunityWikiBank, I can give the 5 Euros to it, and we can call it the corporations fund!
Since there are likely a great many aspects to running CommunityWikiBank that will need to be considered, it may help to start a list. One initial consideration (by far not the most important, but one that has my focus for other co-incidental reasons) is …
This page seems to be geeting TooBigToEdit? in many different dimensions as well as the traditional one of ‘size’. One dimension I feel is being stretched to the breaking point is that some of the “assertions” being made may not be universally correct. For example… (see CommunityWikiBankII (2006-07-28))
This is just one examplpe of one issue that I feel is pulling this ‘page’ in too many directions for it to have a clear focus that may lead to a call to action, such as a request that those people (myself included) who have pledeged funds, actually transfer the monies they have pledged, so that whatever ‘decision-making’ methodology we agree on can be applied.
Perhaps its time to break this page up into a number of independant threads that various people or groups can develop?
in the long run i agree, that there are two groups . the one with pledges and the one without pledges .
you started this page, so i think you know the best, where to break it up . but if anyone else has a good suggestion, all the better .
Agree, too big.
Hans, good idea. Having a konto for the bank is useful, even if it turns out that it’s a new currency totally outsides of the grip of the money system that has to be created. I support it. There actualy will be a bunch of things to be financed on the way. What about the idea to use the bank as a help for creating a wiki-net (big style)?
I will start looking into the Terms and Conditions that are part of having a PayPal? account. I will also start thinking about the ways in which such an account can be managed effectively, if only because working for a bank taught me that there is a real need to have at least two people ‘authorize’ any transactions.
I’ll also have to take a much better look at wiki-net before expressing any opinions since I haven’t taken the time to do that yet. I’ll try to do so this week. Obviously, this is a specific case of the more general need we will encounter to decide how to use the funds, so we should probably resume that discussion.
Hi Hans and all, I’ve took some of your MutualInspiration to seed a first BarCamp:BarCampBank workshop page, I’d happy to initiate in Paris on 16 september with any interested. Anybody can contribute on their wiki. I think - hopefully - we could get some first local insights from some french-geek-bankers. Mattis and Helmut, I’d be interested to know more about the necessary funds to accelerate a future WikiNet able to integrate MicroFormats ?
Thanks Christophe. I’ve added ‘investigate the barCamp’ link to my (ever growing) toDo list
By the way, have your investigations of MicroFormats progressed far enough that you might feel comfortable expressing an opinion about the idea of incorporating them into a MicroPayments? system? For quite some time now, various North American companies have been pursuing the idea of microPayments. A few related concepts include…
A Dollar has no intrinsic value in itself, a US bank-note’s production costs are ~ 4 ct. I’ve heard. A backup in gold for this note (which formerly has been a receipt) is a dream from the old days. Casino chips are equally a fiat currency as what you change it into when leaving the casino, just on a bigger, to say it correctly on a global scale. It’s all about leaving this casino as well. Change your chips into real money at the cashier and leave. This just as a note not to reinvent the (squared) wheel. We’ll need operating with conventional money, yes, and I’m not out to remind about the importance of the creation of independent and transparent money every time. It was just the term real that I stumbled on. Dollars, conventional money, ok. But not real. It’s not open source. It’s as much real as proprietary software is “real” software. This money doesn’t exist yet, thus its creation is most urgent. We will have to deal within the conventional money system - to first create this “open source movement” on the money-level. Lets just keep the language clear. Sorry for my pickyness, Hans, I appreciate your effords a lot.
on squared wheel: the shape of this wheel, if round or triagle shaped (which is the more “enlightened” metaphore, actually) is in the hands of extremely reckless people. Working within their system is like using Windows. It’s ok sometimes. Trusting on it is like deinstalling Linux.
I also have to learn about MicroFormats btw.
bit later: hmm, we have personal accounts, people pledged conventional money, the bank holds it. And we’re honest. What the bank owns and we only could spend together is more or less the 100 EUR I gave to it. See this as “voluntary taxes”, a donation to the public to make it operable. We could spend that money usefully, should give us a nice wiki-net server for a year, I guess.
Agree on exploring MicroPayment, yes.
Proposal for a name change. We are community-wiki. This bank is about the wiki-community. Thus [WikiCommunityBank? wiki-community-bank].
Maybe even more catchy: [WikiNetBank? wiki-net-bank].
(Ideas are 100% bullet-proof btw.)
Is there some module for blancing our accounts here? all this “sigi + 10, xtof + 5”-stuff confuses me .
Cooperation fund sounds ok. The old idea of cooperation, maybe even the corporation …
Thanks Hans for answering. Still interested to think about this PiggyBank (tire-lire in french) idea. My investigations about MicroFormats are too recent to express any opinion. Let’s say I agree strongly and impressed as a non-programmer on the overall simplicity of MicroFormats. This form of very simple tip-jar expressed by video-vertigo should be an example of what could be adapted for our wiki-net-bank ? The rel-payment specification is still in progress and not really opened to brainstorm. Yes Hans, I’m interested in this, and would be pleased too to brainstorm what could be done to build such a system in an OpenSource? environment. May be we could build an english branch-brainstorm wiki here on FractalWiki? ?
mattis writes: “Is there some module for balancing our accounts here? all this “sigi + 10, xtof + 5”-stuff confuses me .”
if nobody minds, i will make a try (done)
my question is: what to do with the cbw fund ?
Hmm. Wait a minute. We’re into mathematics anyhow. Those who come early in your system, sigi, get rich and richer whenever the fragmentation of the one global eTerra is augmented (divided by 2 4 8 16 32 64 …). The early ones’ wealth doubles every time. What about finding an algorithm to distribute this growing wealth to all participants equally according to the degree of their participation? Buh me if I didn’t get some basic maths. It sounds like the perpetuum mobile to me.
we decided nothing so far, but the basic fact is:
each account is an additional currency as long as the account is not dissolved. if we furnish cwb with all our cash in hand, and then ensure that the accounts are not any longer dissolved, but serve as an additional currency, then we would have doubled our money, because the cash, which we gave cwb, belongs still to us . ( me on http://coforum.de/index.php?5863 )
verdoppeln kann man also eigentlich nur einmal . aber da die letzten ja ihr konto behalten (also nicht verdoppeln), können die ersten das öfter tun (allerdings nur, wenn sie mit dem geld, das sie für ihr konto bekommen haben, neu einsteigen und dann warten, bis sich die aktzeptanz wieder verdoppelt hat) . und das ganze auch nur, wenn sich alle darauf einigen, dass mit dem geld, welches sie der bank gegeben haben und das ihnen immer noch gehört, genau dieses modell verwirklicht wird .
I haven’t been paying much attention here, because, frankly, a lot of the conversations spawned here go in bizarre & alien directions.
But I like the idea of making the CommunityWikiBank.
As far as I’m concerned, there are only two things that matter:
The first part, is complete.
The second part, is all that needs doing.
Once we start lending some money, and, (hopefully,) getting it back, I think we can start asking the more philosophical questions, such as:
None of those more philosophical questions really strike me as all that tangible, at this point, though.
So, who needs to borrow $1,000?
Alex? Bayle? Mattis?
I know a girl who wants to go to college, but unfortunately, she needs much more than $1,000. Maybe she can stack it up somehow, or something.
Y’all are talking about going no interest; Perhaps I should check out $1,000 to make a few car payments on my girlfriend’s car. Or something.
Just, anything, basically. Anything.
I don’t think it really matters what.
So, does anybody know anybody who needs some money?
Hans’ looking into the Paypal TOS strikes me as a good idea. Have you discovered anything in there?
why should i lend my money to somebody? that’s bizarre .
you may do it . and others too . why shouldn’t it be legal?
but where is the motivation to pay the money back? there is no!
btw. if your pledge is now 400 USD (previously 200) we must correct CwbTotal (lion: 625) .
Yesterday night, I promised my pledge to PierreBernard for his wiki-africa project. Pierre could join us here. No motivation to have any pledge-back. Just some wiki-trust. Maybe we could open one day a CommunityWikiBankProject? in order to list where are the funds and reports. Still enthusiast to promote the “rel-payment” MicroFormat.
Look at it from the (bank)programmers pov . if we (the bank-community) agree to do so, than, in my opinion your total is not affected, because your pledge is still acknowledged (more, it’s like you payed the money to the bank (pierre then has to confirm the receipt or we can do that via paypal)) . if we dont agree, your pledge and your total is affected .
you can even make a CwbJournal booking (date: xtof -(x)+ pierre) .
btw. if your pledge is now 500 EUR (previously 300) we must correct CwbTotal (xtof: 990) .
think, we should discuss the conceptions with sylvie, mattis, pierre and all who are interested on CommunityWikiBankIII .
Hello, Thank you very much in Christophe for this wiki-trust which honours me! The project is explained in French on this Bliki for CIEL project. It is a question of giving a support for the organization humanitarians and social to Africa and more precisely in Ivory Coast (Abidajan) while enabling them to publish about Internet their information, their topicality and to initiate a collaboration on wiki.
a really good project, i think .
so, in addition, there is the CooperationFund . if nobody minds, i nominate you for being our first money-candidate .
My dear fellow wiki-bankers, Mr. Morgan, Mr. Aldrich, I present to you the eTerra-wikis - eterrawiki.org.
There’s an eTerra-wiki-en and an eTerra-wiki-de. They are both fully integrated in the wiki-net.
The stuff sigi and I made up in 2003 was copied on the German eTerra-wiki and my idea for a better use of human intellgence was copied on both of them. Maybe you edit today’s talk and tell me what your impression is? Thanks.
I think that using http://eterrawiki.org is a great idea, personally. Hopefully people will start adopting it. Also, I think that the idea of using WikiCalc? is great, too. WikiCalc? allows you to audit changes, so it makes it harder to “cheat” the system from it’s front end, anyway.
After quite a bit of thought, I still do not understand this “double” money concept. Perhaps a simple explanation (audit, in banking terms) of how my $1,000 pledge has grown to $1,440 would be helpfull. After all, without an obvious, and transparent understanding of how an account Balance changes, it will be difficult to trust the system that reports the balance.
there are no 1440 CAD . having different currencies (CAD, EUR, USD …) we need a standard of comparison (a sort of super currency (1 SC = 0.71 CAD = 0.5 EUR = 0.64 USD ..), though the currencies are volatile) . 1000 CAD = 704.86 EUR = 14010 SC (super coins) .
SC is a purely electronic token system with never paper or coin being minted, so you cant wind up the accounts, you can only transfer money from account to account (if you need old money, you can sell your account or parts of it) . therefore i said: our accounts are real money . by turning our pledges into cash, we buy accounts from the cwb . but we are the cwb . so the money is still ours and in addition with the accounts we have doubled our money .
re: “Let The Games Begin”: Hans, that is great! Would be a great experiment. AlternativeCurrencies are under-rated, IMO.
from Entropia Universe:
Why are Macintosh or Linux not supported?
The Entropia Universe is built on a graphics engine from NDL, which currently requires DirectX? from Microsoft to run. There are currently no plans to make the Entropia Universe available on other platforms than the Microsoft compatible PC.
Huh, I didn’t notice that, Mattis.
I understand the issues with Croquet (IsCroquetSecondLife). Yet, it really would be interesting if some of us launched an actual project to use croquet, or a similar open source equivelant (like http://interreality.org/). Obviously, this would still not be as cool as SecondLife. But it could be a project to experiment on small scales with virutal-world currencies, and possibly to then scale-up successful experiments, seeking to broaden the user-base by showing people what you can do with it, and helping a project become findable.
While I really believe that we do need to experiment in these areas, and I really admire the knowledge and skills of those that have expressed an interest in this so far, I now feel the neeed to state that I do not think the primary areas in which we need to experiment are those in the technical realms.
Given an answer to this (personal) question, I will then be able to offer to pay for your time in the Currency of your choice, at slightly different rates, in a manner identical to the real world’s Foreign Exchange operations.
This is a BIG subject, so I’ll stop for now, if only to consider how to best organize the content I suspect we are about to generate.
Hans, I see what you mean. Plus, I think that there are multiple markets for the currency. You have the Linden exchange, and then you have people auctioning Lindens on ebay. Plus, you have people “selling” them p2p right in SL, and outside of SL. You end up with different exchange rates.
But, assuming that people are using Linden exchange, then I think there is an exchange rate at https://secure-web5.secondlife.com/currency/market.php (you have to login with SL ID to see it)
I would recommend using the official Linden exchanges to change this money, because the IRS is now going to start taxing SL money earned from owning land. (You already have to pay income tax to the US government from SL money earned through other means)
So, if you keep it with official Linden mechanisms (and I believe people should for their own security, and compliance with law), then doing the math based on the personal asnwers to Hans’s questions should at least be a little easier to translate.
Hi all, I noticed that the first section of this page stopped being a good weblog post, so I changed that by posting some text there from lower in the page. But I don’t really understand CommunityWikiBank well enough to summarize it well, the result being that the weblog post is kind of vague and doesn’t really explain anything by itself. So if you can think of more to add there, please do.
What makes this different from privately lending/borrowing money between friends? Where does the “bank” aspect come in?
Helmut… Welcome back! I hope it was a great trip!
I’ve been wondering what the answer to your question really is since this “withdrawal” request happened a few days ago. I doubt I’ll be able to explain my thinking properly yet, but these are a few of the points that I’m mulling over…
It is mostly this last point (c) point that I think is pertinent in this CommunityWikiBank concept we are slowly testing. Consider…
These are some of the Banking issues that I was hoping to explore when I first responded to the “what is money” issues that were being discussed quite some time ago, with the proposal to set up CommunityWikiBank. There are still a great many such outstanding issues, so I see this first “tranaction” as an opportunity to make some progress in creating real policies for a Community Business (as opposed to just having theoretical discussions, without tangible examples)
More later, as Interest levels justify.
I suppose we’re also “bank-like” because there is a ledger. I knew there was ~$1,500 available. When you’re just lending between friends, you often have no estimate of what is available in the pool.
Hans, I wrote my last message before my trip, now I’m back. Yes, I appreciate the exploratory nature of this. But the minimum requirements for a bank seem to be sustainability, so there should be an interest rate compensating risk and handling/transaction costs.
China is quite an experience. zâo shang hâo, to the rest of the world. It’s common that someone tells you “I come from a small town, just 2 mio people, you know”. Everything below 1 mio is considered a village.
Really nice to see your post!
I absolutely agree with your statement about “sustainability”. I think that wiki communities need to be particularly aware of this requirement since their members frequently espouse the RightToLeave?. I, for one, am also of the opinion that this needs to be dealt with if “growth” and “scale-ability” are to be achieved.
It sounds like your trip was very “broadening” and “educational”. I’ve been learning a bit about it (from a distance). One of my “trusted” friends moved to China about five years ago, to teach English as a Second Language and is most likely to remain there. His first posting was to “Wen Zhou” (a small “village” - his words - of some 7,000,000 people). We stay in very close contact simply because we are both fascinated by the emerging opportunities we see.
I’m personally in favor of interest rates, as well as just basic fees for taking out a loan.
That said– It occurs to me that they need not necessarily be paid in dollars.
That is, for example– the InternetExchange board could be used to pay interest, loan fees, and so on. (Just a thought.)
I absolutely agree that the currency need not be $us. After all, we are already discussing the implications of AlternateCurrencies? and to my way of thinking, tradinional “fiat” currencies are simply a commonly and accepted implementation. (An interesting note is that in Canada its becomming increasing difficult to use “cash” as oppoosed to a Credit or Debit card.)
I’ve been staying out of this because it seemed too theoretical. There didn’t seem to be any practical application. But now I’ve seen one successful transaction (on CwbLedger). It seemed to be beneficial (or at least break-even) all around.
So I’m adding my name to the list, and joining this little experiment.
I am sure people have seen this, but just in case: http://unmoney.planetwork.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page - Best, Mark
Thanks, the the reference, Mark. – Hans
We are very glad to finnaly meet some people who share similar values.
3 years ago  we created the “bank of wikipedia”. It was a nomic bank, and , like you, we also tried to create a wikibank and community money. The administrators of wikipedia tottaly deleted the experiment and all our log files. We were not “sanctioned” by the project. We tried to create the same bank again in wikia site last year  but they deleted it also . Although the deletion of our bank was merciless, and the most important part of it (the rules) has been deleted, some traces of the bank’s activity can still be found. For example, here are some remaining traces where you can see some of our account holders and transactions. 
The Bank of Wikipedia was a nomic bank , and we had rules followed by the members.
The first rule, voted unanimously, was:
The members can express their opinion and decide about the rules of the Bank.
All the rest rules depended on that first rule. My question for your bank is:
What are the rules of your bank? Who decides them?
hi, anon. Hm, those taking part in the experiment agree on the rules, yes. CommunityWikiBank has been calm recently, a year ago or so there was more passion about it. Ideas have to ripen, sure.
I’d add a rule - my personal point of view, not necessarily CwB’s view: The total sum of money is known. It is constantly = 1. We called it eTerra, sigi and I when thinking about it in 2003, a proposal. I made the eTerra-wiki then and also use it to gather activities around new money / bank & finance 2.0 from time to time. Maybe make a page about your bank in the eTerra-wiki and descibe it.
Before setting the rules of the bank, we have to decide what the voting procedure rule should be.
We have a lot in common. As far as I remember, in our bank, the scarity of money was one of the rules. We also made the agreement that money should be a stable number. (we said 1000, but 1 its the same). I have to go now, I am afraid that I want be able to have internet access for the rest 15 days. But I ll be back. I assure you.
Hi there, I am anon again. I am back after 15 days, as promised. I think it is a good idea to have a dedicated page where the rules of the bank are decided. Shall we open a new wiki page for that purpose?
It is also a nice idea to design a logo for the bank along with a logotype. For example “Change the agreement for money, opensource it.” sounds like a good logotype.
Is this project still living?
CommunityWikiBank has been dormant for quite some time. I considered salvaging some of these thoughts as CwB = CommunityWikiBusiness? in order to give it a broader context and more appeal, but that too stalled. Personally, I remain very interested and active in more traditional forms of both Banking and Business. If posts regarding these topics resume here at CommunityWiki, I would likely participate.
Define external redirect: CommunityWikiBankProject RightToLeave CommunityWikiBusiness DirectX PayPal DiiGo OpenSource TrustMetric DecisionMakers FractalWiki AlternateCurrencies BarCampBank WikiCommunityBank FundableDotOrg WikiWord TooBigToEdit TrustMetrics MicroPayments WikiCalc SocialCommonWealth MicroPages PageDesign WikiNetBank