super-currency: (0.71 CAD / 0.5 EUR / 0.64 USD)

cwb: 260
hans: 1458
sigi: 497
ted: 831
mattis: 90
xtof : 10
lion: 715
helmut: 10
alex : 90
luigi: 1000
pierre: 1000
sylvie: 50
cory: 1
marshall: 2
sam: 78
nicolas: 200

total: 6292


Take it easy Mattis ;)
my total figure should add up to 580, it seems to me ..
i’m not “that” rich :
PS - add a 20 donation to sigi and make my total 600; thanks.

thanks for the donation . you really push up my ego :) .

having different currencies (CAD, EUR, USD …) we need a standard of comparison
(a sort of super gold or world currency (0.72 CAD / 0.5 EUR / 0.64 USD)) .
so, 600 (EUR?) is 1200 in this currency .
-200 (donations (i’m not shure, perhaps it’s 100)) is 1000 (1100) .
please correct me, if i am wrong (it’s a wiki) .

Sorry sigi and luigi I’m completely lost is this supercurrency for our trust-economy. I’d just be happy to give a pledge of 500 euros to PierreBernard. Who could help me to update the journal ? How about using a shared spreadsheet like WikiCalc or an alternative solution like the future to manage our transactions/donations ?

you are right . we need some improvement here . the point is, that there is no booking if the pledges are augmented .
i’ll try to do it:
your pledges first were 300 EUR . now are increased to 500 EUR . that’s 1000 in our currency .
there is a booking in 2006-08-20 :
EUR*200 -(400)+ xtof (pledges)
xtof -(1000)+ pierre (wiki-africa project)
you give 70 (35 EUR) for donations and get 80 .
so your total is 10 .

if there are more people we perhaps need a special program, which makes an automatic correction in CwbTotal if you make an entry in CwbJournal .

Everybody - especially I, knowing how to - can make a new day-page set on the eTerra-wiki for having a day-page for every day of accounting, for having a perfect history of the accountings. Call it “_eTerraWikiBank” maybe? eTerra-wiki: what is a day-page?. We could - with a bit of an efford - also build such here. But maybe Alex wouldn’t like that? The only things missing on oddwiki I can think of are the avatars and the aggregation on FrontPage.

TWB - eTerra-wiki-bank

This day-page set puts out a feed - the eTerra-wiki-bank-feed - informing everybody about the eTerra-wiki-bank’s current “existential orientation” - all balances included.

It takes longer here, but if you don’t like the name, ok. ;)

Feeds for events - it seems to me can also be merged pretty effectively - hiv-wiki: wiki-net events.

Sigi: yes if Super Currency 1000 = 500 € then my SC amount should be 1200 SC … and i only need to understand why you deduct 200 for donations … In general, in terms of a practical meaning for my (occasional, so far) relationship with CW i’m still lost … i’ll be allocating some time, between now and September 30, trying to define an identity of mine which could understandably link with an identifiable subset of what’s been going on in CW … so far

there are some entries in CwbJournal:
luigi -(40)+ mattis (donation) = 20 euru
luigi -(40)+ xtof (donation) = 20 euro
luigi -(40)+ lion (donation) = 20 euro
luigi -(40)+ alex (donation) = 20 euro
luigi -(40)+ sigi (donation) = 20 euro
but perhaps they are wrong . do you wish us to correct them?

wiki market-sqare

I don’t know why (anyone bother to answer?) I own 10.00 SC. Sounds good, anyway. What can I now buy for it? Who offers me a product or service?

  • CwbJournal 2006-08-14: xtof -(10)+ helmut (whuffy) ((entry disappeared somehow))

Voila - the essential questions: “What can I now buy for it? Who offers me a product or service?” That must be answerable positively. Thus:

I offer to improve text, in German, in English maybe, or make up concepts for wiki-hives and such for payment in eTerra.

Later I reread what I wrote and thought it’s greed-culture. I change it to:

I try to improve text on wikis. I make up concepts for wiki-hives and such. If you feel like reward me in eTerra. I will myself reward projects I think they deserve it.

Mattis, I know you as an excellent author and I appreciate your work. If we assume that you charge me for the hour, how many of your work hours can I get for my 10.00 SC?

Exactly 23 minutes and 23 seconds ;) Well, that’s why I changed my offer above. I won’t do it when I don’t feel like anyhow. But if I do it and you reward me propperly then a certain trust grows and the likelyhood that it also works out fine the second time is even higher. Especially when it’s completely transparent to all if you rip me off the second time. It could be the same with the guy I buy my vegetables from if

  • the degreee of transparent netification would be high enough
  • paying online for three tomatoes and a bunch of parsley wouldn’t be an issue

Ok, then … 23 minutes probably doesn’t make sense, we can’t build a new economy on that. So, can I go negative with my account? How can I increase my 10.00 SC balance?


What i understand now is: i have 500 euro pledge to CW and 100 euro donations to a bunch of nice CW guys; what we have here is the CW balance in SC …. so … that’s right :) 1000 SC payable to CW and 200 SC payable for donations and that makes 1200 SC for my dues. Right ?

  • yes

When and how does this money become payable by me ???

first i think we need a critical mass of pledges before any paying of casch. mattis and i made a model with 2^18 eTerra . that’s 262144 SC or 131072 EUR .
in any case, we need some money to secure a wiki, which belongs to the community (old money, but also new money) . so we also need some money to invest it again .
for that we need a person whitch is absolutely trustworthy (i think hans is) to manage the old money .
this done, we need a possibility to transform more old money .
the model is: we can buy eTerras or SC and receive an account. the money we pay belongs then to the community . if all accounts (in our model 2^18 eTerra) are sold, the community split the accounts . so we can remain one half and can sell the other half for exactly the price we bought the whole . so other people have the chance to get an account too .

btw. in our bank, there is no dept (and therefore no interest) . if you give money to someone, then it’s your own risk .

The idea that you are going to “secure a wiki” makes me interested, but now I wonder: how can we make sure we are “securing” at the lowest possible cost? What is your estimated annual TCO for such a wiki? It may seem unimportant since the number is likely less than $50 per year for now, but I think it is worth talking about, especially if we think such a wiki could eventually become a focal point of activity, so bandwidth and uptime could become important.

Other things that interest me are how powerful each participant’s votes could really be, and how we can most effectively spread control without losing the ability to steer as a community.

Till schlug in ein Bodenbrett,
einen Nagel - schlank und nett -,
meine Herren: Dieser Stift,
genau der Welten Mitte trifft.

Till drew a nail
into the wooden floor - with wit.
Sires: This pin
exactly hits the earth’s midst.

It’s seriously not npov. It’s nothing that anybody since Einstein can claim to be the middle of anything. It’s dynamic, relative, panta rhei-type. All I know to say at the moment.

well, i think, first we need a group, which is interested in an open and free wiki . i know for certain, that sylvie, you, patrick and me are interested . then we need a person, which installs a wiki for us and figures as an owner . if patrick could do that, that would be fine . he then will tell us, how much money we need, then hans will give him the money and then he can do it .

patrick, the most powerful vote i can imagine, is our wiki-tree (earth’s midst) . decisions are made by argumentation . if we can not decide, then the person in the trees midst decide .

the subset i understand of what’s being discussed here (i’m the dumbest guy in town) gives an opportunity to say something i never manage to spell out in my personal CW page … what a relief ;) ….

i’m not just “interested” in an open and free wiki … i “need it” … and it should have a WYSIWYG interface localised in italian as well … and i want to be able to contribute to its availabilty as an end user …. please! :)

otherwise i’ll see the end of my days while still fiddling aimlessly with Blogger and Writely … :(

i trust you guys and hidden girls ! … do not let me down, per piacere ! :)

When I hear “first we need X and Y and Z” I understand BS (or, if you prefer “heads in the clouds”).

The point is that any new kind of money must enable us to better exchange what we can do and want to do for each other within a community. And it must not rely on any single God-like guru, who provides trust and security and handling of the system “for free”.

Hmm, sounds like pioneer-ship. When some people go somewhere, Columbus and the Santa Maria folks for example, they think on beforehand about what they will need where they are going. That’s applied human intellect, not BS.

No single God-like guru nowhere in the whole system, agree. Doing it together. If you like we can corporate, costs me 12 Euro per year. Own it together and take the resposibility together. Dunno how to, we have to ask a lawyer, I guess. So there’s no guru on that issue at least. A commonly owned server and a wiki collaboratively administered would be awesome. We should try to build a tree for the wiki-community bank like we once started it on wiki-folks. Feel free to draw some lines, sigi.

Luigi, I understand why you want wysiwyg. It seems so much easier for an average computer user. There are some wysiwyg engines among the wiki-hives I noded recently, hive-wiki: list of wiki-hives. Stikipad and wetpaint for example. Try out and tell us. I for myself am not too convinced of wysiwyg, it slows me down quite a lot permanently grabing for the mouse. Both text mode and wysiwyg would be fine, socialtext and have it. What you think?

“hidden girls”: i’m shure, all girls love luigi :)
and i’m shure: if the tree gets an italian branch, our free and open wiki will get an italian interface as well . our bank will spend some SC for this .

bäume malen: geht im moment nicht, weil gesperrt (also kein hochladen möglich) ist . vielleicht sollten wir mit martin mal diesbezüglich kontakt aufnehmen .

im übrigen versteh ich manchmal nur bahnhof (vielleicht heißt das ja in österreich bahn-station) . und dann fällt mir ein alter wiener song ein: “mein lieber herr, was haam’s denn nur? was wolln’s denn nur - in einer tour?”

Mattis: I wish I understood your story about the nail.

sigi: I wasn’t clear, but the “interest” I have in such a wiki has more to do with designing the mechanisms of “control” that will ensure such a project (any project) can be finally “taken over” by whomever finally participates in it in the most “appropriate” manner. My vision is similar to what the GPL already does for software, a rough-draft is hidden (maybe not yet written) in the PropertyLeft page. Some of the ideas about how voting occurs in PlainLink also apply. I’m not personally interested in figuring out the specifics of hosting this new FreeWiki? nearly as much as I think we need to design the ‘rules’ of how such things will take care of themselves.

Luigi: I’m working to merge the content from PlainLink and my comments at NameSpace to make a PlainTextWiki that is WYSIWYG even in a normal edit-box because all whitespace is preserved and all markup will be VisibleMarkup, but without CamelCase or []‘s.

Helmut: I agree the most important function of money is to ease trade. My interest here is in trying to create a ‘plan’ or ‘design’ that will minmize Guru power by maximizing worker freedom.

mechanisms of “control”: the ownership of a trustworthy person . in the long run, the community is the control (the owner) . our wiki-tree is the control . and last not least is our money control .

you write: “I’m not personally interested in figuring out the specifics of hosting this new FreeWiki? ..” but above you wrote: “the number is likely less than $50 per year for now, but I think it is worth talking about, especially if we think such a wiki could eventually become a focal point of activity, so bandwidth and uptime could become important.” are that not specifics?

but well, i think, first we need a group, which is interested in an open and free wiki .

btw: why is there not a group “CommunityWikiBank” if you write on CwbTotal?

Hello, was that sigi? This is Patrick.

mechanisms of “control”: by this I am talking about how control of the wiki is traditionally a battle between a GodKing and what they consider SPAM.

Specifics: I mentioned an approximate $ figure to note that the cost would initially be very low, and I could even add it to my account for $0 + cost to register a domain name.

I was only trying to stress that my higher level goal is more to do with designing a general system of governance. I am very interested in a wiki following such principles, especially if we can get some of PlainTextWiki working, as it is a great way to making governance ‘implicit’.

To summarize: I am willing to begin hosting immediately at no charge until bandwidth becomes an issue, and at that point will just “pass along” whatever charges. I will pay for part of the cost of registering a domain name if I like the sound of it.

I would love to be part owner in such an arrangement where it is so popular that bandwidth does become an issue (easily true we begin becoming more MusicWiki, and video, etc.), and yet the design of the “control” mechanisms, a kind of ImplicitGovernance? that takes care of things like costs and “appropriateness”, etc. in an almost automatic manner.


“general system of governance”: that was a common topic of mattis and me from the beginning . but this is not done by putting the questions to the vote: what’s the good of outvoted or dissatisfied people? things should be decided by arguments , but if we could not decide, then the person, we most trust, should decide . for that we need a structure of trust . so, yes, we need your vote on the higher level of WikiFolks .

“domain name of which we like the sound”: any suggestions?

sigi: the hidden girls i referred to are ladies like sylvie, who i do not see contributing any more .. what a shame ..

all: i do not understand 90% of what you all talk about … just like the young guy in my picture a few decades ago could not understand 90% of a general purpose operating system (OS);

yet, in those days there were supercomputer prospective users … who could understand 0% of an OS; so, i was lucky enough to become involved in computer site operations as a User Support analyst, on their request.

Today, if it does not take too long to happen, prospective Open Source Software (OSS) users, such as the small municipalities of the mountain communities in the area where i live, might be shown their way into understanding that they should take the same approach taken by supercomputers prospective users i mentioned above … they presently understand 0% only of OSS.

The difference with those old days is that i did not need any special action, in the OS case, other than learning my 10% of an OS know how from my thesis work;

in the present OSS case, i need to provide some demo of how social software OSS tools can produce collaborative work involving the small municipality parties … without exposing them to what’s going on in the OSS development environments ..and … i find it bloody difficult :(

Well, i still do not know how i’m going to provide that type of demo … I’ll be attending a local e-government workshop tomorrow (italians only) … to see if i manage to get noticed as a possible help in the direction this short story has tried to unveil; i believe i’ll be trying to negotiate a handshake with two camps at the same time: the OSS development camp and the public administration prospective user camp; but it’s very likely i’m just making a fool of myself …. wasting my listners’ time … Sorry folks (girls and guys)

luigi, sorry . let me explain my remark . it is a citation or an association (i hope, mattis or someone else will translate) .

in meinen jungen jahren arbeitete ich einmal eine zeitlang mit einem italiener zusammen in einer fabrik am band . sein name war tonio und obwohl er eher von kleinerer statur war, war er durchaus selbstbewusst und immer guter laune . eine bemerkung, die er einmal machte, verriet mir, warum das so war. er bemerkte einmal ganz beiläufig und im brustton der überzeugung: “alle frauen lieben tonio” . diese geniale einstellung zum leben habe ich mir sofort zu eigen gemacht und wünsche sie eigentlich jedem .

mattis, the reason why I called this BS was because I read “if we want to make this new money we need more real money” which is kind of absurd. And: “we need a banker” (who backs and manages the system). All this sounds like a conventional money system. On the other hand, the more important question “what kind of economical exchange to we have with this super money” is basically ignored.

According to the Columbus-planning example, I feel like on a ship to a new continent among people not discussing and preparing for the situation of actully living on the new continent.

There are many real world examples of new currencies to learn from. Nobody here seems to be interested in this.

I’m with Helmut, here. There are many real and existing projects to introduce barter economies and alternate currencies. There is lots of experience with these things, lots of management and conflict resolution problems already solved. If you’re not starting with existing efforts – at least with a criticism of them explaining why you want to deport on a new venture – then this discussion is of no interest to me. And indeed, that’s why I mostly ignore all this talk.

the money of the future is a purely electronic token system with never paper or coin being minted . that means that the accounts are not finally converted again into coins or paper money, but are the material money. and that is the crucial here and gives us the chance to finance us if we handle it correctly .

Just to clarify what I’ve written at MoneyFromScratch:

While it is true that electronic money is probably less expensive that creating metal or paper tokens, it still has costs.

Electronic hosting costs are non-zero, especially when considering the need for security of individual accounts and ‘integrity’ of the CommunityCurrency?. By “integrity” I mean that all of the currency in issue must be backed by ‘useful’ Sources of Production. Sources of Production include things such as land, tools, buildings, energy, water.

But this discussion is far less important than the trouble the United States government has become involved in with the Federal Reserve Note. The Right to Issue Federal Reserve Notes is RENTED from private International Central Bankers. The American people pay Interest each year for each Dollar in circulation. Any community inside the United States can issue their own currency without paying some random external entity for the ability to issue these tokens, but on an island named Jekyll the gubment sold US out.

The Right to Issue the MoneyOfTheFuture? will not be Rented from External Bankers.

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