let’s help each other within wikis and beyond to play, experiment, dream, learn, discuss, collaborate, make friends, earn money and get enlightenment :-)


Mathematics, Computerscience. Programmed in C++, VB, Assembler, Forth. Classical music education (piano), later Blues/Jazz practise in small groups.

See MeatballWiki:FridemarPache for more.


Wiki Mail:

Hi Bayle, the old idea of an AnnotationWiki has now evolved into an WikiAnnotationMediator. Could you give please a link to a place where programmers of a WikiAnnotationMediator could download the (modified) perl-script CritLinkMediator of KaPingYee. The inventor deserves it to be resurrected by the web2 community, after the Foresight institute ceased to offer the service some years ago and KaPingYee gave us green light to make it available to the advancement of wikis. Just found the original script at . Do you have your modified script yet? – FridemarPache

Hello, great to hear from you! Our annotation stuff was so long ago that I sort of forgot where we were. Was the modifed version just that one with the patch described on AnnotationWikiIssues? If so, perhaps you could just re-apply that patch to the copy you found. That would save me the trouble of digging up a backup of the content that was on my webserver (I can’t tell if the relevant hard drive is crashed or not, but in any case I can’t seem to access the files that were on the webserver right now; I’m going to get a new webserver in a few months so I figured I wouldn’t deal with the problem until then). Or was there more to the modified version than that? Thanks, – BayleShanks

Our common memory is buried in the SeedWiki Annotation Wiki, where we discussed the topic. With diigo and its associated social bookmarking/archiving/annotating infrastructure, the original content would be preserved on different hosts. You were the one, who has the credit, having analyzed some of the Perl code and moved it nearer to wiki. And you found some hooks, where at least local clientside macros could be used to bridge the gap (the AutoHotkey? community would probably love it to do it.) I have no server, but here are a lot of wikizens, who could set up the (modified) script on their server. I think, to get your modified version running, could be done in an hour, with your public help. The wikified CritLink would be imho the best community annotation server in the Web ;-) My part would be a tester and a propagator of this renewed (wiki-) community tool. Perhaps I could contribute some macros too. PS: I started to diigo-annotate AnnotationWikiIssues. The registration is free. – FridemarPache

Hi Markus, nice to make your acquaintance. I am moving the current content of my homepage to the CommunityWiki, because it is currently impossible to get an external link to my blog address in MeatballWiki. Stickung to OnceAndOnlyOnce, I leave a BackLink in MeatBall. Hoping to find partners for the idea of WikiBlogging in the CommunityWiki. On the other hand I feel strongly connected to MeatballWiki. – FridemarPache

Fridemar: I’ve been thinking about the kinds of tests that I am interested in performing within the context of WikiBlogging, and am becomming sufficiently motivated to want to share these ideas, assuming you too remain interested. If so, I’ll start a few ‘building block’ pages. Ideally, I’d like to contribute to BarCampBank at the same time, so I am thinking of creating a set of technology tests within which I can write up a few of the Banking concepts I’ve been mulling this over since starting the CommunityWikiBank page.

Let me know if you find this approach acceptable. If so, I’ll even try to factor the MeatballWiki:DiigoService technology concepts you introduced into my test plans. – Hans

Hans: Great. Thank you for your initiatives. As you can see from my new HomePage here, my GoalStatement shows, that a Wiki:WikiWayOfLife integrates Wiki into the economic sphere and that I want it to realize together with WikiFriends. I have not yet understood BarCampBank yet, but I feel, that there is something great evolution in it. The MeatballWiki:DiigoService is in Beta; some features don’t work yet. E.g. it doesn’t support the Beta version of Blogger. We need a MeatballWiki:BlogService, that is fully supported. Blogger is integrated into Google. So I leave it there at moment, but also look for supported ones. What about the other Diigo supported blogservices? Can you or some other peer here recommend some? – FridemarPache

Hi Fridemar. Just tested DiigoService on a personal wikiblog. Think this annotation service is huge. Still one point, how could we help them to support french accents[1] ;-) I’d be happy if you could join us with Hans, Ted, Brandon, Mattis, Alex, Helmut, Sunir, Lion and any other WikiNetistes on our BarCampBank meeting tonight ? A kind of WikiTing with an agenda dedicated to TrustMetric. Details to join us are based here. Cheers

Hi Christophe, it’s a great honor for me to be invited by you (I guess, that Fridemir is a typo for Fridemar, just detected that I myself made a typo, when writing your name, so I corrected both typos ;-) . To join now would greatly expand my workspace. Yes, I am very interested. But currently I am nearly at my time limits. Programming and WikiWork?, I take it seriously. I am just on the way to find a server where to place my FridemarPachePortrait.jpg. Done --fp You can find one searching Google pictures. cu – FridemarPache

Moin, Fridemar. Welcome. It was back three years ago, I had just been pointed to wiki, when on Meatball I read interesting texts of you. I’m a former bassplayer, both myself too: J. Brahms & O. Petersen - just like you are. Music still is the language the most easy to translate,
world-jam-wiki. L8ers.

Moin Moin, Mattis, I am very happy, to welcome you on this homepage. This is a great link, you gave here. A living community of musiceans and other creative people, my dream! Currently I cannot delve into it immediately, because I am programming Midi2Kb, that I want donate the community. This software itself builds on free software of three disjunct communities, I hope to connect with. What about joining forces and collaborate, after having released Midi2Kb: sharing composition, arrangement, performance, production,income, collaborating with mathematicians (from what you write, you know MathSongsWiki) lyricists, graphic designers, cartoon people and of course musiceans. Goal: making (flash-)Screensavers (as growing “playlists”), that come as free demos, beeing able to expanded to full glory, by pushing a pay button. Income goes to all team-members. CC for derivative work. If interested, I’ll factor this out to a separate wiki page, here or on the GründerWiki. – fp

Our conversation here was factored out in consense with all participants to DiigoAnnotation

My apologies for not being able to respond to you as regularly as I’d like to.

I have a number of projects I’m at work on right now:

  • CommunityWikiGovernment preparations, so we can finally settle these questions once and for all.
  • It’s been my turn on EthicsConversationB? for a while now
  • sigi is busy rowling up the newcomers, trying to make them believe that this wiki is, or should be, an open discussion forum for all people, who can never be kicked out.
    • One hint, should be that sigi has never been listed on “Some Contributors.”
    • Another hint, he’s not following UseRealNames, which is CommunityWiki policy.
  • There was the WikiTing, which went for 4 hours.
  • I’ve just paid the bills at home here.
  • I owe TomAtlee? three hours of dedicated thinking towards his projects by the end of the day.
  • I swear to God, I’m playing with my daughter, in the first snow this year.

I just finished, which I had been meaning to do for a month now. I really wanted to write the CommunityWiki SemanticNetworksForSearch today, not fighting fires set by sigi.

As the only CommunityMember who is really spending a lot of time here right now, things are a little stressful for me right now.

dear lion, excuse me for having drawn fridemar into our conflict .

i am a very tricky person, am i not ?

fridemar, CommunityWikiBank is a purely electronic token system with never paper or coin being minted, so you cant wind up the accounts, you can only transfer money from account to account (if you need old money, you can sell your account or parts of it) . therefore i said: our accounts are real money . by turning our pledges into cash, we buy accounts from the cwb . but we are the cwb . so the money is still ours and in addition with the accounts we have doubled our money .

fridemar, was denkst du, wie wird das geld der zukunft aussehen ? richtig, es wird weder scheine noch münzen mehr geben, sondern jeder wird ein konto auf der wiki-weltbank haben und das geld wandert von konto zu konto . d.h. aber, dass die konten selber das geld sind . folglich, wenn wir uns zum ersten mal ein konto anlegen, haben wir uns damit ein neues geld erschaffen . eine wahrlich wunderbare brotvermehrung .

Translation by fridemar: Fridemar, what do you think, how the money of the future will look like? Correct, the old currency will go away , but rather everyone will bank on the Wiki World Bank and moving the money from account to account. I.e. the accounts themselves are the money. Consequently, if we design ourselves for the first time an account, we created ourselves therewith a new money. A truly wonderful bread increase. – FridemarPache 2006-11-27 21:48 UTC

Sigi, I prefer to earn real money, sharing it with collaborating peers, paying the tax to “the Cesar”. Alternative models are interesting for legitime political parties, but currently not a topic for me. Note, that I use my RealName and this is my Real Home Page, listed in all my official mails, that I use, included the tax authorities. – FridemarPache 2006-11-27 21:57 UTC

Fridemar, it’s good to see your ideas.

Normally, WikiMailing, WikiPosting, WikiMail, and WikiBloggingPostingMailingBenefits would all go onto one page.

The idea is to have “1 conversation : 1 page,” (more like BigBucketsFirst,) rather than “1 idea : 1 page,” the ThoughtChunks / ArgumentPyramid idea.

This is to avoid two things:

New people usually are advised against creating new pages: See VisitorRole, and then GuestRole.

However, since you’re on-topic, and because you’re clearly contributing, the rules are not being strictly applied.

So, what I would do, is recommend is:

  • Scheduling the pages for 30-days deletion, by putting “DeletedPage” at the top,
  • and copying their content to: WikiPageMailingIdeas?, (or some other title, that contains all the ideas,) as one page,
  • and then putting “== Discussion ==” at the bottom, as per CommunityWikiPageLayout.

One thing you might want to do is put WikiMailing, WikiPosting, and WikiMail in sections that work like so:


…instead of:

 == WikiMailing ==

(which is the normal thing.)

When you use the “::WikiMailing” form, it makes an anchor link to within the page. So all links to WikiMailing go to that specific part of that big page.

Hi Lion, it is nice, to get friendly advice (note the rhyme) and it is very convenient for me to not get trapped into hours of basic discussions, which this mature community has certainly done in the past, resulting in a subtle balance of forces. Studying this wiki, will take me perhaps at least one year. The amount of information in it is formidable. My duty is now to finish Midi2Kb and then to build MathSongsWiki.

If I am welcome, I stay here. Why on earth is my edit-field smaller now. Is somebody squeezing me out? :-) How can I make it wider? – FridemarPache 2006-11-27 21:48 UTC

I, speaking for myself, personally, welcome you. I’m sorry you had to be witness to all of this; I wish we had thought to make this all clearer in the beginning.

Yes, what is here is, indeed formidable. I don’t think it’s possible to participate here, by just reading everything, though; And there is a lot of CommunityLore that is not ExplicitInformation. And there is a lot of ExplicitInformation that is just plain wrong, due to ChangeFailure in the PageDatabase. So I think the proper way to participate is exactly as you have: Just jump in, and get corrected, over and over and over, until you know how it works, how the community is structured, and so on.

Midi2Kb & MathSongsWiki sounds like fun; I like these projects a lot, especially from an EvolutionarySpirituality angle.

As for your edit window, I have no idea! I really don’t know… Browser issue? Maybe there’s a setting somewhere. I seem to have some memory of there being a settings page of some sort.

There is no rules page; Or rather, there are so many rules pages, it’s hard to tell what is the rules, and what is not.

I think the best bet is read and abide by GuestRole, and to understand the CommunityRoles diagram. See also: VisitorRole.

Perhaps we should make CommunityWiki-specific versions of these pages; I suspect that will be part of forming the CommunityWikiGovernment. But the basis is well-established, in those pages.

Hi Lion, the edit-window could be at least be made two fingers wider. Perhaps some other peer can help. Midi2Kb and MathSongsWiki are, what makes me tick, especially the wiki.

Now I am pondering, where to place the early alpha version of Midi2Kb, please help me find the optimal solution:

  • in my private FTP directory (to be annotated or not)
    • as a text-file
    • as text-files (with includes)
    • as Php Wiki
      • open/restricted access
      • in fishbowle mode
  • Community Wiki or some subwiki
  • in my MathsongsWiki? ( Midi2Kb is not directly on topic)
  • in another Wiki to be created in a WikiFarm
    • Seedwiki
    • here or elsewhere
  • on Sourceforge
  • in the Autohotkey community
  • in the Keykit community
  • on the GründerWiki

The reason, that it is difficult for me to come to a conclusion, is, that it will be a social experiment at the same time, gaining a lot of new insights. I am rather sure, it will catch a lot of interest:

  • (not only) blind people can easier type because of
    • the more homogenous structure of the musical keyboard
    • the differenciated accoustic feedback
  • musiceans get
    • more training time for the Midi Keyboard (doing PC stuff, normally done via the PC keyboard)
    • more eartraining
    • more inspirations
  • applicable for controlling programs
    • graphics
    • composition programs

Ah, dear peers, who wrote after the last factoring out, do you agree, that we should again factor out our conversation, before this page gets overcrowded? – FridemarPache 2006-11-27 22:40 UTC

Personally, I’d just post it to a web page, and put your email address next to it..!

That’s the way most OpenSource projects do it.

It’s also what I do, for a lot of my projects; See

That said, if you want to make an OddWiki for it, or a wiki on your computer, or wherever, that would work to. It can require a bit more care, because spammers will do a drive-by spamming. But if you don’t mind, that works too, and you might get more comment.

Thank you for your fast answer. I want to try out something completely new, inspired by a MIT-video lecture (something like “The Future Of Work”). The professor asked the audience, if anybody would like to fly in an airplane, where each passenger controlled the navigation. The students must have thought: what a dumb rhethoric question. The clear answer was “of course not”. Now to the surprise of the students, the lecturer showed them a video (within his lecture video), how in a stunning simulation an audience navigated indeed a model airplane on a complicated curve, passing several rings as targets. Incredible! The procedure was simple. The whole audience was divided into a right and a left part. Everybody got a sign-stick with two colours, red and green. The audience decided continually, when the airplane should turn left or right, up or down. If enough of the right half of the audience lifted their sign-sticks, with green, then this meant, fly up-right and if … (their are three other pure possibilities) you get the idea.

See At 36:38, Thomas W. Malone shows a videotape of an interactive group flight simulation.

Now lets generalize our experiment. Let’s use annoations as a generalized sign-stick. Our airplane is the source-code to be elaborated. The author of the source code plays the airplane. You get the idea. – FridemarPache 2006-11-27 23:10 UTC

Yes, and people have played “pong” en masse, this way, too! And there’s the jelly bean estimations. Unfortunately, our inquiry into CollectiveIntelligence is immature.

As for code: Code is super-fragile. Simple “up-down” or “left-right” or “more-fewer” tension-measurements are common in these efforts, but I’m not so sure about code… If you merge any two arbitrary code changes, unless they are purposefully coordinated, you get something thats simply broken. That said, if you can get it to work, it’d be really amazing.

The author knows too good, how fragile code is, therefore the annotations are mediated in the start phase, not necessarily “forever” (by the initial author). On the contrary, the sooner the initial author, can devolve it, the better. Because then he can fully concentrate on MathSongsWiki. Let’s view it like this, the actual code, on Wiki pages, is kind of a terminal object in a production system (grammar). The annotations are the Nonterminals, as driving force. As you know from programming, it is recommended praxis, “release early, release often”. The author hopes, that wiki is excellent for that. Another principle, I learnt from Forth, keep your building blocks (Forth Words) as small as possible. So the author prefers small Pages. (In early Forth, there were only 16 lines per page, that had to be composed into a unit, that made sense.) I would love a scrollfree Wiki, where each page could be overlooked with one blink of an eye.(The author knows, that this is possible in Forth, but nearly impossible in object oriented C dialects). So each contributor on a full page had the duty to refactor it, serving the principle: RefactorEarlyRefactorOften?. These ideas are written, straight from the shoulder. But I hope, they are useful for getting understood. – FridemarPache 2006-11-28 02:26 UTC


I generally do not comment on CopyRight issues (since I believe the system is broken, beyond repair), but since you appear quite concerned; … I consider anything I put on the (visible) internet to be in the Public Domain. After all; I chose to put it there knowing I can’t protect it, so why would I argue about its uses? In short, feel free to move, edit (or whatever) my postings.

Since Lion suggests OddWiki and Alex cited it as one of his options, I feel I can mention that I am already a real fan of this software! I have posed a few questions recently regarding its operation. Assuming the answers confirm my current opinions, I’ll really start making use of this environment because I believe it has many great collaboration features. I’d be pleased to ‘mentor’ a bit, you if you decide to try this approach.

Here’s one! BeginnersGuideToCommunityWiki

SimpleSimon was invented by EmileKroeger, incidentally.

One thing to note is: TurnBasedVsInterruptedThreadMode. I was going to bring it up personally, but things are so hot right now, and so I decided against it. But while we’re here: TurnBasedVsInterruptedThreadMode is something to note.

Lion, Hans: your suggestions make me very happy. Gnu free doc licence and CC share alike, giving credit to all current and future authors, preventing the stealing by unjustified propriety-makers, is the right thing. So be our mentor (and first annotation partner ?). The steadily increasing page hits of Google:fridemar are my PR-donation to all the people which whom we collaborate. My name is only a tool for our brother’s and sister’s. Soon they will have the same number of hits. Not by manipulating the Search-Engines via Wiki Spam, but by friendly WebWeaving, where we contribute true value to the communities and don’t put our light under the table. So please make a new Midi2Kb wiki with these nice green color CSS and License as said. You know it, how to make it, I suppose. But please not a blogwiki, because WikiBlogging appears to be far more efficient for WebWeaving. – FridemarPache 2006-11-27 23:33 UTC

Dear Fridemar:

Please consider EcosystemOfNetworks. And then, please ask yourself: “Can a CreativeNetwork?, (or what I call, in more PlainTalk, a clique,) get full?” If you only have N slots, where N is less than or equal to 12, does it make sense that there might be a courting process, before acceptance?”

I grant that there are more ideas, and creative people are attracted, where there is lots of freedoms to express, and so on. That is why I attend the SeattleMindCamp, where roughly 150-250 people, (and we are now in the Social Network sphere, of the EcosystemOfNetworks,) meet and gather, for 2 days, madly posting ideas all across the hallway, with tons of space. Note that there are rules there, too. Even there, there is a constant tension about: “Who can come? Who can’t?” It usually takes the form of: “How many people are we going to allow to come from company X, even though X is sponsoring us?”

The rules of “posting” are customized to the concept that: “This is for 150-250 people.” (It’s basically a derivative OpenSpace.) So we see the EcosystemOfNetworks at work: The rules for 5-12 people are different than the rules for 150-250 people, which are likely different than the rules for several thousand people.

Incidentally, I am playing with the idea of a wiki space, made for 150-250. If we set the expectations and authorities right, and so on, I think it could be a really amazing space. NoSmoke and WikiPedia are evidence that wiki can work on enormous scales, but I am thinking of something different. This is a different conversation, entirely. If we decide to have that conversation here on CommunityWiki, and if you are interested, I will invite you to participate in that conversation.

I love ideas. I get ideas from everywhere. We have RecentNearChanges?, because we read MeatballWiki, even though we are not MeatballWiki people.

When I ask myself, “What is my dream, here, for Fridemar?” I answer: “I hope that he finds a space, where he is part of a clique, where people answer his questions, and where he finds collaboration partners, and where he begins the process of making sense, and making helpful artifacts, for his own satisfaction, and the good of the HiveMind.”

You probably do not know this, but: There is a story behind how CommunityWiki came out of MeatballWiki. It was a very ugly thing, with lots of shouting, (virtual,) back and forth. It was very emotional.

I was Fridemar, writing tons and tons of new pages on MeatballWiki. SunirShah rejected it, and a lot of the ideas. I started attacking and arguing with SunirShah. It was horrible.

There was a funny state of events, where 3 of us happened to want to leave at the same time, for different reasons. Some of us were concerned with OpenContent. There was also wanting to focus on computers, not just people all the time. You can still see those influences today. We’ve long since made up with the MeatballWiki, and I’ve personally apologized to SunirShah, at WikiSym. I’m very grateful that we are in the good graces of MeatballWiki. MeatballWiki and CommunityWiki both thrive, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. MeatballWiki is the best place for the things that MeatballWiki does, which is discussing communities.

I have a vision of the HiveMind, that we will grow to understand the EcosystemOfNetworks. (I didn’t create that page; It was SamRose that led to it.) That we will understand the interrelationships between all of us. I suspect that the optimal configuration will seamlessly slide into the StandaloneComplex?. If you haven’t seen the Ghost in the Shell movies, you must. Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, and the Ghost in the Shell TV series. The Japanese publics state of consciousness regarding the Singularity and so on is way beyond ours. (See also: UnpreparedImagination, TransHumanism.) Only a few people read RainbowsEnd. Regardless, humanity is rationalizing and articulating it’s relationships: This is the OrganizedCulture. So, this whole EcosystemOfNetworks awareness fits in perfectly.

We can’t put everyone into one clique, of course. We can fit a lot of people into a Social Network. Unthinkable numbers into a Political Network. Beyond that, … But the basic unit of organizing on the Internet seems to be the project, and the basic unit of socializing seems to be the clique. So it is in the best interest of the HiveMind for people to find their cliques.

There may even be an argument that it is our social responsibility to help you, Fridemar, find and build your clique. I don’t know, but I certainly feel eager to help.

I am not a MeatballWiki CommunityMember, but I love to read the pages there, and I draw so much from them, that I couldn’t draw if I was participating- I’d only be an interference. They have deep expertise over there, in their subjects. Similarly, I would love to see more cliques, and the fruits of their labors.

Because fruit are slow to ripen, but they are quick to distribute, on the Internet. I can read or download or make use of the products from 1,000s of people, even though I can’t hold conversations with all those people. (If I could, I’d be tying them all down.)

Well, anyways: I hope this helps to explain my position.

So in summary: Our goal isn’t to collect vast swaths of creative people. We couldn’t contain vast swaths of creative people; Well, not do it, and do the same sort of things that we do here. SeattleMindCamp, or a BarCamp– it’s a different thing, producing different works, with different benefits, than small creative cooperatives create.

You are a creative person, and I think you’ll make neat things. I’d like to be able to help you to find your group of people. When you do, I hope that you will allow me occasional edits, in the form of comments, in the role of the VisitorRole. And I look forward to seeing your output there. I also look forward to meeting you at conferences.

Dear Lion,

thank you for your extra-ordinary engagement in the community. We all ‘are creative persons and make neat things’ and meanwhile I understand you better. This night I read your IRC-protocol (indeed it’s hell to read such protocols, thank you for making your actions transparent and transcribing it) and a lot of other stuff and get’peu a peu’ a better and better understanding on what goes on in this forum. Sorry, I was wrong, when seeing you only as a main contributor and saveguard of the holy grail of this wiki. You are looking and working for optimally sized collaborating groups (cliques) and I appreciate that. Unfortunately I must interrupt my answer to you now, because I have an urgent date (Termin?). I hope to continue communicating this evening (supposed that all involved hard- soft- and wet- ware are available ;-) As promised, on it goes. As you are heavily using LinkLanguage, it takes me a lot of time, even only trying to digg into the atomic parts of the used language. Currently it is impossible for me to reach the ground of this ocean. So the understanding to the deepest level is not yet possible. Considering EcosystemOfNetworks, I locate myself in the small creative sphere and a bit in the community beyond. But I have no power aspirations in the bigger apple around. There was a remark in your mail, that surprised me: “I was Fridemar”. Staying to the principle AssumeGoodFaith, I allowed me to interpret that as a “metapher” in the sense of Tat Twam Asi and not as Wiki:WhoStuffedWordsInMyMouth. Indeed I know such horrible times too. Each of us is a DifficultPerson, relative to the observer, depending on millions of factors … but that’s the challenge. “There is more joy in the community over a DifficultPerson, getting into emotional and cognitive resonance, than over thousand compatible minds, that have never been a problem.” (’My translation of the Bible calls for a better wording’) – FridemarPache

DavidCary, BEXT and Forth

Welcome to CommunityWiki. I think the Mathsong BEXT is really cool. I also have done a little Forth programming.

Apparently I am blissfully ignorant of the controversies that so often rage across the Community Wiki :-).


Hello, dear David, welcome on this homepage, you make me happy, when enjoying and appreciating BEXT. Guessing, that you are a practising lover of visual language, what about the following idea: I could temporarily store the whole BEXT on a secret server, and give you access for downloading it free for your own. I won’t make it generally free, because I’ll take it as a prototype for derivative work, such that a creative team can earn their live with this and a lot of more similar productions. Imagine hands and people (in cartoon form) that actually move and transform the formulas, who sing and dance in full joy. Karaoke text, allows to sing and jam along with the music. Math is a free pool of raw material, that can be turned into gold. But we need teams of highly creative people, to realize it, experimenting with all styles of music and graphics. My own creation process looked like this. Selecting canonical stuff from a math textbook, transforming definition, proposition and proof into lyrics, writing an abc-file, composing some initial music with to the text, converting it into a Midi file with text, inporting it to Band in a Box, arranged it, exporting it to Harmony Assistent, elaborating it there, converting it to mp3. Then importing the lyrics into keyframes of a flash movie maker (I used KoolMoves?), composing the graphic keyframes of formulas and synching it with the music by using 16 frames/sec and 120 beats/minute. The music was made in form of double-chorousses, i.e. 24 Bars per chorus…. I would love to find creative peers to share joy, work and income, such that we can realize a WikiWayOfLife. Love and peace (Om Shanti) – FridemarPache PS.: We Forth people know ( I used the public domain W32Forth ), that it is the best programming language on the planet, hey ;-)

On AnnotationWiki memories

Hi Fridemar, just a quick note to let you know that i’m very glad to see you back, and happy to see you here at CommunityWiki. i haven’t had a chance to read and reply to what you’ve been writing recently – but this is only because i haven’t had much wiki time at all in the last year or so. I’m looking forward to catching up with your contributions when I get some time, maybe in a year or so, hopefully less.

Hi, dear Bayle, it’s the same feeling we share, I am very glad and happy too. We have a long common wiki history and hopefully a much longer future in common. We both know the true power of wiki/web annotation. As you (1) have made the first adaption of KaPingYee’s CritLinkMediator in Perl, (2) you have a good connection to AlexSchroeder hello Alex -fp and as (3) Alex has programmed this wonderful wiki, on which we have the pleasure to communicate and collaborate, please^10^10 ask him to integrate Ka´s script into OddMuse. And Alex, I ask you this too. Love and peace to all of us. – FridemarPache 2006-12-02 12:57 UTC

l & p to Friedemar.

A special welcome from Sam

I never extended a welcome to you here, Fridemar. So, welcome! I am still interested in talking to you about WikiBlogging ideas. Especially in the context of OddWiki “bliki” setups.

Also, the ideas at ContentRouting, and perhaps ZergCreep are connected to this in my mind. For instance, having a way to content simultaneously to a blog and one or more wikis.

Hello Sam, thank you for this extra welcome. Your friendly dialogue, we had on the MeatballWiki, was already appreciated as an implicit welcome. As I am on the go .. I will read your links later and respond to you in more detail… Now I continue as promised, after having read your links. I read and read, again an ocean of information. VisualLanguage, OpenBusiness, Why Give Aways … Underway on your favorites, I made some MeatballWiki:DiiGo annotations, containing the flags SamRose fridemar, recommending similar peers to join in our annotation dialogue. I can’t copy down them all, because this would flood the forum. On the other hand, when flag-searching the combination “wiki annotation”, you will only find HansWobbe and fridemar. WikiBlogging and even more MeatballWiki:DiiGo Annotations are such a mighty Link Marketing Tool, that within three weeks, “fridemar” was catapulted from 600 to over 100K Google:fridemar. I would love to have the pleasure, if you (and all the other peers here) joined for an annotation conversation. In the next minutes or hours I start MeatballWiki:MidiToKb as an MeatballWiki:TwinWikiBall on OddWiki. I have to add MeatballWiki:DiiGo annotation and WikiBlogging to the tools for MidiToKb. – FridemarPache 2006-12-03 19:46 UTC

On Annotation

Fridemar, I would want to take a look at the other extant annotation systems before I propose to Alex that a particular one is incorporated. I’m currently partial to the Annotea one (here's the mozilla plugin) b/c it’s open source, open standards, allows multiple annotation subscribtions, and is still a going concern (unlike the Crit system, which is currently abandoned, I think (?)). But as I said, I don’t really have much time right now to work on annotation.

Not to say that I am proposing that CommunityWiki waits for me, either; if you and Alex and everyone else like some particular annotation system, don’t wait for me. Anyhow, I don’t think my support is necessary or sufficient to convince Alex. I think what would really convince Alex would be if someone else wrote the code for an OddMuse plugin to do what you want. So I suggest you do so!

And I know you are partial to Forth but I’m sure you could learn Perl if you wanted to (personally, I recommend Python, but Perl is what Oddmuse is written in).

On Annotea and DiiGo

Bayle, thank you for pointing to the Annotea Fire Fox plugin. I was there, some time ago, and explored a bit the end usergroup. Not much traffic. Here a downcopy of my MeatballWiki:Diigo annotation: (Perhaps I missed something)

This page is developer centric. Can somebody please [point] to a user oriented introduction (without the need to subscribe first)? Post by fridemar 11-20-2006 Delete Edit

The Diigo community however with its associated social bookmarking and annotation subcommunities has zillions of users. Currently nearly no wikizen can earn their live by contributing to wiki, they must do work, outside wiki, to pay their bills. Therefore all my energies go to build a special purpose wiki MathSongsWiki, where a WikiWayOfLife is possible. The intermediary project MeatballWiki:MidiToKb is my way to pay with my work to the friendly community-building wikis, which in my view play a very important role for the Future of Work. – FridemarPache 2006-12-05 10:57 UTC

I think MeatballWiki:Diigo is amazing, for sure. I think it is great for personal use. Yet,for a service like MeatballWiki:Diigo, you cannot predict what will happen to the commercial service, who will buy it and absorb it, how they will change it, etc. Plus, if it changes, it is difficult to impossible to keep a copy of it in a state that your community prefers. I have been part of online communities that relied heavily on a commercial service, and it can really drag things down when you are forced to find new solutions because your service provider went out of business, or made radical changes due to corporate mergers and/or acquisition. Not saying this will happen with MeatballWiki:Diigo, but I think these are reasons why a lot of people here might not want to adopt MeatballWiki:DiiGo for CommunityWiki use. I think in CommunityWiki, you will tend to see people lean towards something like WebAnnotation, that is OpenSource and integrated with wiki engine software. Mostly, because once you have it up and running, you can invest your time and knowledge into it without having to worry about the problems with commercial services.

Although, all that beign said, I have alot invested in, for instance, and gmail. And, of course, MeatballWiki:DiiGo looks really cool. So, I totally understand why people are enthusiastic about these commercial services.

Hi, Sam. I appreciate as you OpenSource. But there isn’t any yet, that can be compared with MeatballWiki:DiiGo. You write, that you invested a lot of time in Would you call that (and worry about) a commercial service. Community members use Google, Flicker, YouTube. And by the way, is a subcommunity of Diigo. This social bookmarking service deserves to not be talked down as “great for personal use”. Just have a look at DiiGo:wiki where some thousand wikis are already tagged/annotated. Sticking to our common values of TrustedLinkLanguage, I suppose to do you a favor, when correcting the misspelled links. If on the other hand you wanted to use them as kind of poésie concrète for giving a feeling of a shock, when Diigo went down, tell me and I revert my corrections :-)FridemarPache 2006-12-05 18:41 UTC

Hey folks, btw, you can just type DiiGo and it will automatically be redirected to MeatballWiki:DiiGo since we don’t have a DiiGo page here. That’s the NearLink feature of OddMuse.

It wasn’t working for the page DiiGo until just now because the page index from MeatballWiki was stale. I ran the maintain action to refresh it.

Recovering NearLinks

Hey dear priviledged users of community wiki, please help to recover the nearlinks of this page. Contrary to what Bayle recommended and earlier helped to realize, the NearLinks don’t work currently. Happy Xmas to all. – FridemarPache 2006-12-23 12:49 UTC

This is because sometimes Meaballwiki goes down, and their RSS feed stops working. No RSS feed=No NearLinks. :(

When that happens, you can run the maintain action the next time that MeatballWiki goes up: I just did that and now the NearLinks seem to work again.

Thank you, Sam and Bayle, for making the process of recovering nearlinks transparent to newcomers. – FridemarPache 2007-01-03 16:06 UTC

TwinPages: MeatBall MoinMoin WardsWiki

Working in tandem to overcome vandal attack in Meatball

Hello Fridemar, sorry for writing here, I hope you check this page for changes. For obvious reasons I didn’t want to write it on Meatball, because that could aggravate further our guest in there. Thank you for working hard both on reverting the vandalism and negotiating with this obviously distressed person. I’ve been thinking about this for a while and I concluded that it might be a good idea to stop fighting him and just let him create the vision of Meatball he has. He obviously cannot finish it with us interrupting and reverting all the time, and we can’t possibly see the higher goal he has until his work is near completion. What do you say if we give him one week for uninterrupted work, and then decide if the pages he edit are worth keeping or reverting?

Hello Radomir, thank you the same. It was a great experience to work in tandem with you against destruction. Reading again the page NonViolence, remembering some buddhist stories, how to handle daimonic processes (=nonintegrated processes in the conscience), I’ve been moving in the same field as you. We have the chance to watch, support and experience a Saulus-Paulus transformation :-) – Fridemar

Hey Fridemar, I’ve been playing over at MeatBall trying to figure out the destructive graffiti from

He calls himself ApacheWarrior?, so I made that page and use that name to sign additions to it that are mostly just cut/paste from his work. It seems to slow him down temporarily.

I wonder if he just wants his own space? Anyway, I’ll mess around for a few more hours, and then check later tonight. Adios, PatrickAnderson

I seriously think we should just leave him be. When left alone, he will either start doing something productive on the wiki (if he has anything to do there) or just leave. In both cases both he and meatball wiki profit.

It makes me very happy, to act together on MB, nice to see Patrick back after a long time . Not bad, the special page for special action :-) By the way I use with its macrorecorder (to reduce typing and mousing, when reverting pages). Does somebody know a similar tool for the linux EEEPC?

Fostering Each Other

Could somebody please help me to recover the broken portrait. Thank you.

Can this help?: --JuanmaMP

Thank you Juanma. I’m interested in your hint on Meta Cognition. There might be stuff on CommunityWiki or some of its connected OddMuse child wikis.

Fridemar, it was just a colloquial comment (and that comment, wasn’t here, it was on MeatBall; maybe, people won’t go understand it out of context). When I said meta cognition, I wanted to say that when the atmosphere between people is not entirely clear, make any clarification by personal choice is a good point.

I regret that I shall not dwell much on this matter, I’m not professional or therapist (although “nihil humanum alienum me est”).

Just say that our mind has cognitive activities as well as target activities cognitive (thoughts about our thoughts). Maybe the last ones, go sometimes unnoticed and then it’s when we went in wanting to guess (divination) instead of doing questions. Just one idea about this, but it’s interesting, right?--JuanmaMP

Juanma, yes meta communication interests me. I learned from friendly and constructive conversations with Lion (on Meatball) a very helpful technique, how to support non-native English speakers. He reformulated unobtrusively some of my preceding statements and asked me, in his dialogue-part, if he had understood me right. I took this (parallel to his other statements) as an embedded subtle hint to reformulate my earlier statement and responded to his question and other statements accordingly. This technique appears to me helpful in so many ways, that we may open some time a dedicated page for it.

But before we open a ShallowPage on CommunityWiki, we first have to find out, if Lion had not already created such a page SubtleHints? or similar :-)

As CommunityWiki is friendly to multi-language activities, I would love to have you here with more mutually helpful interactions, perhaps supported by other peers (hey this would be great!). So what about a portrait of you, Juanma. ( One of the reasons: ) On your precedent response, I read at first only your last paragraph, because the beginning paragraph merged with my own statements and nearly went unnoticed, if … I hadn’t looked at it a second time. Another reason to adhere to the portrait format is, that it supports turn based conversation.

Define external redirect: RefactorEarlyRefactorOften SubtleHints StandaloneComplex WikiPageMailingIdeas TomAtlee EthicsConversationB CreativeNetwork KoolMoves RecentNearChanges ApacheWarrior WikiWork MathsongsWiki

EditNearLinks: ThoughtChunks SeedWiki VisitorRole AnnotationWiki DiigoService WikiFarm CritLinkMediator NonViolence BarCampBank TwinPages NoSmoke PageDatabase TrustMetric MathSongsWiki CommunityRoles RealName YouTube CommunityMember KaPingYee OpenSource WikiAnnotationMediator MidiToKb ForestFire AnnotationWikiIssues WikiFriends DiiGo CopyRight SunirShah GuestRole AutoHotkey PatrickAnderson HomePage CritLink MeatballWiki MeatBall GoalStatement


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