This is a probably temporary message archive. If you can bear with me, I'm keeping this so i may use this to demonstrate the practice of Meatball:WelcomeRitual? for my intiate wiki users. and also as a reference.

Sounds awesome! You should also check out the Educational Technology wiki. Oh, wait- I see- You've already discovered it. Yay!

Thank you for the welcome!

Welcome. Sounds like you're in the right place here. A rollback takes a perfect history, keeping every step, right? Here on Community deleted things get definetly lost after two weeks, keep it in mind. Community is the finest, welcome. Me so newbie as well btw.

Heather, welcome! I have a friend, Jack Park, who's very heavily into advancement of education through new technologies like wikis, blogs, Topic Maps, etc. If you sent him an email and told him I sent you, he'd quite frankly go out of his way to help you (actually, if you described what you were doing, he'd do it without the reference). His expertise covers pretty much the areas you listed. He edited a book on Topic Maps [1], with his kids writing two of the chapters (the rest are written by some of the key developers of the technology). Jack has the beginnings of his NexistWiki site up and running, but it's a bit rough just yet... -- MurrayAltheim

Thanks for the recommendation, Murray. We have to get an outside expert to critique or reflect on our experiments, perhaps I will ask him this. I think I'd like to prepare something first. I know people like that are very busy, and it's important to consider their time.

And, thanks, Mattis, I didn't realise that about losing the diffs after two weeks. Hmm... there's a configuration point! It's all so subtle. -- HeatherJames

Heather, I'm a Masters student at the Knowledge Media Design Institute here at the University of Toronto. We have strong ties to Ontario Institute for Studies in Education. Clicking around your assorted projects, I wonder if you would be interested in linking our various student bodies together? I'm working on building a coalition of graduate students in the new and burgeoning field of Internet research to trade things like interesting papers, conferences, grants, and so on. Would you be interested in this if I got it off the ground? -- SunirShah

i'll respond off-site to this eeenteresting idea. ~h

See http://www.aoir.org/ but its mostly non-educational research.

I know! And I missed the AoIR? conference at U. of Toronto in October! I'm such a spazoid. -- SunirShah

Hi, Heather. Question: how do you think wiki compares with real-time whiteboarding technologies? Why use wiki (notorious for the WikiNow) in real-time environments?

Jack Park is never too busy to answer thoughtful questions. Signed: JackPark?, at Murray's suggestion.

Hello, and thanks for stopping by.

Evan, I need to think about your question more thoughtfully! Thanks for asking it. (oooo- new direction to read up on!) But I can say that I'll be using wiki as a constructionist tool for learners to build meaningful artefacts- which they will create in the context of the wiki. So allowing for the fact that wiki creates documents, these artefacts remain to be reflected on. I've only used whiteboarding a little, but you can't export various stages of the process, and where would they stay? How would they be searched? Also, it seems like it would be handy for a certain kind of response- graphical, rather than textual.

Welcome, Heather! Yeah, I've also been wondering how wiki could be used in real-time meetings. Perhaps for the participants to collaboratively take notes on the discussion, on "action items", or just on the lecture, if the "meeting" is a class lecture. Perhaps some "real-time" editing features would be more useful for that, a la SubEthaEdit. Many of the participants would have to have networked laptops though. (by the way, all, is there an existing page for disussing Futures:WikiInMeetings?)

Heather, to you, as I terrorized Alex with techstuff enough receintly. Since I clicked the css's you offer there is no edit link anymore in firefox, I do not know how to reset to the original CSS. I now answer from another browser. Add a link for the original css please. Might be a local techprob with my computer as well. -- MattisManzel

Try the Themes page, Mattis. (It's listed above, btw.)

LOL, Mattis! Too funny. I'm sorry about that. I was just always clicking my back button and never encountered this problem. Oh dear. I've added a link back to 'default' theme above.

I didn't really mean to, but it's always nice to be entertaining. The claudiastyle css misses the edit and other buttons down on the page. Same in Moilla and Firefox. The other css's are ok. No I'm not afraid of css!

This motivates me to bring all my CSS files up to the same level of support for Oddmuse features. Claudia's CSS file doesn't float the logo, for example, because her site [2] doesn't have a logo.

Heaher , you make good Zauber. Have you got a foaf.rdf? I know it's too complicated to be popular, but it's (another) beginning.

<strike>I'm an enthusiastic wiki newbie. (very new)</strike> I think I'm transforming from wiki newbie... I visit websites now, and look for the edit this page link. I'll see an area I'd like to elaborate on, and when I realize I can't add it, I feel at a loss. :)

Someday, someday now... :)

By the way, have you heard about the AnnotationWiki idea? It was mostly FridemarPache's, but I'm interested in it too (low priority for me, though). The idea is to "wikify" non-wiki sites by having an annotation system for arbitrary webpages and letting people edit the annotations on wikis.

1. interesting thing- i had saved some links on this page, and somehow, after the comments, they have disappeared, and my page reverted... and my changes were lost. i wonder why? is it because i called the changes minor, and someone edited a previous diff? hmpf.

2. word of the day: zauber (german) means charm.

3. i was playing around with foaf at peopleaggregator.com. (mark canter is going to integrate his project with drupal somehow). is anyone else playing around with FOAF here? it's seems like something where, eh... you have to have 'friends' in order to grok the Friend-of-a-friend functionality.

4. AnnotationWiki... okey i'm going to check this out. it sounds like what the web was *supposed* to be in the first place.

Just a few days ago, we were talking FOAF on IRC.


Eventually, I think, FOAF should support the notion of a "group." If it doesn't already..!

I also think that, instead of manually setting "knows" relationships and things like that, it should automatically hook up "knows" based on observed interactions..! So if you talk with someone with high frequency, the "knows" lights up. If you don't see that person for a long time after, the "knows" goes out. But if you periodically see them, over years or something like that, it the light stays on for a longer time.

If it's automatic, people feel less awkward about it. (Of course, you could manually set it differently, if you need to.)

hi, Heather! yeah, the FOAF stuff feels weird when one just comes in not knowing anything/anyone who uses it yet. but i like the concept of a p2p FOAF-style connection a lot better than a private, proprietary network such as orkut.


I must work out my foaf page...

Would you recommend "The Design of Everyday Things"? I started to read the first pages of the intro on Amazon and it seemed interesting enough.

Yes, it's very easy to read. Not too technical, and it points out some funny things, that make you look at the design of our environments differently. It starts to infect how you look at doors, chairs, cups, books, clothes, in a different way. And it makes you want to think more about how you design. It's fun and accessible. I give it a thumbs up!

You write on CriticalTheory:

WE COPIED THIS MATERIAL FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES this is from wikipedia. we experimented with group editing. trying to make sense of this document.

I'm not sure you're allowed to do that, since the CommunityWikiLicense is not the GNU FreeDocumentationLicense. So we can quote as part of FairUse, but we cannot copy, I think. I'd be surprised if the BerneConvention has treats "educational purpose" as an exception.

I think Heather's note isn't so much a "We are legally allowed to do this," as much as it is a "Please don't hurt us, we are your friends."

I believe we intend to delete the page, after we've worked it over.

If we don't edit the page, I think we should just delete it. Maybe a note saying, "Delete after such-and-such date."

[en]Don't you ever hesitate or let anybody make you hesitate, feather. You are right. ;)
[de]Zögere nie und lass dich von niemandem zögern machen, Feder. Du hast recht. ;)

as lion said, yes, we just copied that page temporarily while trying to learn what the heck "critical theory" actually is. we'll continue to work on it and then donate it back to wikipedia, or we'll delete it. how about giving it what, a month before tossing it? i definitely want to work on it more, but i am totally swamped with for-pay-work right now.

it's ok if we should delete it. that's fine. it was more just a test and experiment. about using a document, and having simultanteous discussion about it. in a way, i don't think the experiment failed, but I bet we could try again sometime.

i don't feel any need to work on it further, really. i think i started getting more interested in other ideas that came out that convo.. like when lion mentioned habermas...

the next time, if anyone wanted to try again, we could start with a blank page... instead of group refactoring.

pirahna, if you want to keep it, i won't delete it. otherwise i'll delete it.

we could direct people straight over to the wikipedia entry instead.

no, please do not delete it yet -- as i already said, i want to continue to work on it, and lion has added more information today. i view it as more than the experiment of group refactoring; the core idea is important to something lion is thinking about. besides which, that wikipedia article sucks, you know? :) we can do better. and then hand it back to them, improved.

i don't really want to get into a big discussion on copyright at this moment,but i actually believe that what we've done here does fall solidly under FairUse -- the nature of the work we copied is purely factual, we are non-profit, we made a copy of only a single article ( = a small part of the entire work), in order to create a derivative work, for the purpose of research/education, for a limited time, for which we are citing the source, and the use of which does not lose the copyright holder any sales.

i mean, fair use is a difficult area of the law, but this is so right smack in the middle of it that i can't see the copyright holder having an issue with it. the britannica lets me copy bigger chunks verbatim with only a cite.

if anyone does see it as a problem, however, i'll move it to my own wiki where i would have no ethical compunction about keeping it. i should get my act together and make that thing public; i actually have a pretty good "fair use" article on there too. :)

This is wisely spoken pir, you get a case of beer for that! We should inform wikipedia about what we are doing. Someone knows someone in with the TRex? We, Community wiki, hereby fiendly greet wikipedia and ask for collaboration. Let's do it the wiki-way ;) List of subscribers:


Define external redirect: AoIR WelcomeRitual JackPark

EditNearLinks: FreeDocumentationLicense AnnotationWiki BerneConvention FairUse SunirShah