LionKimbro | LionKimbroArchive | LionKimbroArchive2 (2009-09-20)

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Lion… I added an entry to CommunityLocalNames that only resolved to the site, instead of a page within the site. I was a bit surprised to find that “HwO?” - goes to the …/HansWobbe page (perhaps because that is the name of the bliki subWiki as well as being a Page name within it?) Have I missed something in the documentation?

Are you sure? HwO? seems to be linking to the personal page to me, …

…isn’t that what you wanted?

  • I this the reason I remain a bit surprised may be evident in the confusion that I’ve created betwteen the site…

and its like-named page…

both of which resolve to the page (suggesting that this is a default destination OddMuse uses for any site reference that does not include a specific page. If that’s the case, then my confusion stems from OddMuse, as opposed to local names. I simply thought it was a local names effect since the “HwO?” reference did not include a specific page.

P.S. I find it interesting that the HwO? reference I added via CommunityLocalNames functions identically to Hwo:ToDay?. In effect, localNames becomes a roll-you-own InterMap for folks without admin access. Neat!

I just read some of your comments on ThinkingGoo. As a result, I feel I should at least offer to act as a bit of a ‘sounding board’ on at least one of your points about Group behaviour, but only if you wish to allocate time to this (especially since I too am currently in danger of being over-commited).

  • I have not even managed to get back to Sam re the wiki Farm concepts we discussed.
  • I am over-whelmed by the rate at which you are spawning these thoughts. I think I’ll wait a bit until you slow down enough for me to inject something without interrupting you.
    • Not in this environment, but I’ll tell you the story about the two bulls (a youngster and an oldtimer), assuming you don’t know it. :-)HansWobbe.

On a different note I thought you might appreciate …

A "planning horizon" thought...

This is very preliminary, but I thought you might find it “provocative’ given the comment you made about Finances in your email. Its basedc on my feelings that making money is very easy, especially in the long-term. (Its generally harder in the short-term.) So, here’s some insight into my personal planning horizon…

P.S. - I’ve been doing quite a lot of work with TransClusion and it has radically changed by views about how to communicate effectively. If you are interested, I’ll expand on this while I am working on some of my MicroContent thoughts for SamRose.

Yah! It’s really neat that the TransClusion works so well.

I’d love to hear about how it’s changed your views on effective communication. “WikiDebateBase” and “PortableExplanation” are my thoughts on how the ability to quickly and easily cut in segments of text, and even whole hypertext, influences conversation. I’d be interested in how TransClusion furthers that along.

I’ve put most of my thinking at 2020-2035, because it’s “just beyond” what I feel I can fairly see. Looking out into 2099? I have difficulty imagining what happens out there. I’ve read some plausible-sounding foresight-institute stories for, around, 2050, 2060, that I thought were really interesting. (Can’t find right now.) But I haven’t read anything that makes much sense for 2100.

[[Accelerando?]] speculates that the world is being dissected by the forming Matrioshka brain at that point. I think that’s nuts, since I think that “conservative human interest” will persist. But I think it’s reasonable to think that there will be artificial life by that point, and cyborgs, and so on. (I need to see some explaining, to back a the claim that it’s not likely to happen. Vernor Vinge has done some exploration into the space, though he himself doubts it.)

Hans, I don’t know enough futurism for the bullet points under “consider extrapolating…” to mean anything to me (I looked up each of them on Google, but I couldn’t find Rein Turn, and I don’t see how the other points fit together or relate to the present conversation). So, at your convenience, perhaps you or Lion could flesh it out, thanks.

Re: futurism, as y’all know, I think people are underestimating the time it will take before making great strides in singularity-ish research.

BTW, I think Vinge’s book Rainbow’s End (or the short story Fast Times at Fairmont High) is notable in that life is quite different in that world due to technology, but most of the technological changes are things that I can pretty confidently say are imminent.

I think hard-takeoff singularity scenarios are ridiculous. This is where, one day, everything is normal, and then within hours, the sand underneath your feet has become sentient, because some supercomputer somewhere has spontaneously achieved “intelligence,” rapidly self-augmented, gotten ahold of nano-tech facilities, and begun it’s program of completely reshaping the Earth. It doesn’t make much sense to me, because the premises seem all wrong to me. For example, it’s not sufficient that a program merely be capable of intelligence; We can look at our own children for this: It takes years and years and years for a child to take in the learning of an adult. At the very least, I think we’d be seeing child-like bumbling and stumbling (but surprisingly smart!) artificial intelligence for a long time, before we saw the spontaneous super-AI. And I suspect that “the merging problem” (merging learnings, merging intelligence) will be hard for machines, as it is for humans. Not as hard, because they’ll be able to connect in more ways than we can, but I suspect it will still be hard. (I suspect we’ll learn a thing or two about the abstract nature of conflict and autonomy in the process, as well..!)

The soft takeoff scenario of RainbowsEnd makes total sense to me, though. And I agree: We can be pretty confident of it’s immanent reality. I think the time line is reasonable: 2020, 2030 whereabouts. I’m skeptical about the contact lenses, (and so is VernorVinge,) but that’s not so important, there are other ways of doing the same. (Glasses, for instance.)

The soft takeoff of RainbowsEnd is an utterly nerve-wracking world. It makes the cold war look easy. I read a CIA guy once write, “I pine for the simplicity of the cold war days.”

One reviewer of RainbowsEnd wrote that it was a world that is on the razor’s edge of Singularity. I have to agree.

On a side-note:

BayleShanks, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on the HTM. I read OnIntelligence?, and was surprised: I walked in very skeptical, and walked out thinking, “Wow, this guy really has a plan, and it makes sense to me.” I remembered getting excited by NN’s in the 1980’s, and writing some with my friends in high school, but then watching as they didn’t go anywhere. I played with genetic algorithms in college, too, and have been reading papers by people combining logical, NN, and genetic AI. But the HTM is really interesting to me: I thought his criticism of classical NN made sense, and his brain-mimicking reasoning and connectionist premise made a lot of sense to me. Have you seen these ideas, and, if so, what do you think of them?

How I imagine it would work, is like so: You show it footage, of whatever, and then you look at the code-points that form in it’s connectionist network. When it’s formed a node that you notice lights up whenever you see an (X), you go, “Oh, that’s (X),” and then connect the (X) node to whatever (conventionally programmed) behavior you’d like to enact at that point.

Or, you move the motor controls of the device in a way that you think it should when it sees X, and the feedback mechanisms cause the motor movements happen in the same way when the same pattern is seen again, since the feedback mechanisms are the same machinery as the perceptive systems.

(restored from edit conflic, hopefully I did not miss anything in Lion’s comment above - SamRose)

Sorry, couldn’t resist jumping in on this :).

re: Bayles Comment “Re: futurism, as y’all know, I think people are underestimating the time it will take before making great strides in singularity-ish research.”

It’s interesting to think about what forces, expected or unexpected, could enhance or hinder progress in this area.

Perhaps I’ve never relayed this here in CommunityWiki, but I believe that there is a strong likelihood that over the next 2-3 decades, the world, natural ecology, and human systems that are interwoven with them shall experience multiple levels of global-scale upheaval, and radical change.

The last time that we saw massive change in human systems on a global scale was arguably during WorldWarTwo?. Conditions emerging from this conflict ended up rapidly accelerating technological advances.

The coming time of upheaval and massive change will not be limited to just human systems. Although, changes in the way that non-state groups organize, challenge, and erode the infrastructure of nation state groups will be a large factor and driver in the total wave of upheaval that is looming. Failure to redress human poverty will exacerbate this.

Other converging factors are cataclysmic climate and ecology shifts on a global scale, micro biological evolution that combats human technology, human dependence on non-renwable resources and human organization around unlimited expansion. Water shortages, decentralized and non-state development of potentially mass-destructive technologies in the genetic, nanotech, and robotic/AI areas. All of these are converging into becoming global factors around the same time (sometime between now and around 2035).

This environment could (hopefully) spur the development and evolution of some technologies and innovations, in an attempt to solve problems. Some of this development could come from people like us, who I will call non-malicious/non-nation-state actors.

It’s funny, I think, how much we agree, and yet interpret it differently.

I think we all more or less agree on the type of vision visible in RainbowsEnd.

The difference is in interpretation:

Okay, like Sam I want to jump in too. But this (Lion’s home page) isn’t the place. I’m already working on related aspects in several different environments, so I’m not at all fussy regarding where this moves. I’ll wait until someone leaves some breadcrumbs I can follow.

maybe we could move to Futures Wiki? Lots of related material there, and hosted on Lion’s own server. Seems like a good candidate, anyway..

Futures Wiki sounds good to me. Lion, may we move this conversation to there?

OnIntelligence?: I haven’t read it yet, so I can’t comment.

“Yeah, it’s pretty neat, I guess.”: Yeah, that’s how I feel, I guess :) I want to reserve my maximum levels of awe for more awe-inspiring things. Like, the sort of things that schoolchildren would still learn 800 years hence (if schoolchildren still existed 800 years hence; but we can still use that as a metaphor). The only recent example (to my knowledge) of a truly awe-inspiring milestone that recently happened, and the only one I anticipate happening for the next decade or so is the beginning of the internet. Before that, the beginning of space exploration. Also, I bet there have been recent developments in mathematics which are important, but I don’t know about them.

I agree with Sam’s list of important/dangerous possibilities, and I agree that many of those are possible and that they are important. If, say, nation-states were abolished, that would be a big milestone; if there were huge disasters/wars, that would be another milestone (I don’t mean to imply that all milestones are good). With these sort of things, though, it’s harder to predict which of them will happen. Ubiquitous wearable computing, and that sort of thing, is the only kind of stuff that I am pretty certain that will actually happen; but those things are less important.

Some questions by Hans…

  • Does MoinMoin play nicely with Oddmuse with respect to TransClusion?
  • Can Bayle’s WikiGateway make this an ‘irrelevant’ concern?
  • Is it time to consider an environemnt that can provide a “Service Level Agreement”, perhaps even for a fee? Please understand that I will follow the conversation regardless of where it goes, its just that I am still in the midst of a series of Oddmuse installations and am hoping to reduce the future maintenance issues as opposed to increase them (with yetAnotherWikiEngine) – Hans

Hans, MoinMoinTransClusionTest is a start. Can you explain more here or somewhere, about what you are referring to when you ask “Is it time to consider an environemnt that can provide a “Service Level Agreement”, perhaps even for a fee?”

MoinMoin and OddMuse generally play nice together.

Lion, I just left you a note on but then realized that was silly because that note is simply this:

Hi Lion, do you have time/inclination to help this process move forward before the WikiOhana WikiDeveloper? meeting today? If so, please see [1]. Thanks! TedErnst

Thought you’d be interested in I just glanced at it, but it seems like it is trying to do a special case of what LocalNames is trying to do.

Hi Lion,

I was having a discussion with Mattis Manzel on #wikka (Freenode) about various wiki-related subjects, where he mentioned the name “lion” several times; at one point he pointed me to which made me remark that while I couldn’t reach MeatBall:UnifiedRecentChanges, it sounded similar to WikiPing, as it was at one time implemented on Now, the WikiPing is protocol is still part of WikkaWiki - so I mentioned and the (original) development page for it … where to my surprise I found a reference to “lion kimbro on OneBigSoup”. Unfortunately, when I followed that link, I found a load of spam. I did my best to “manually” revert that page (please check!). What I didn’t do was change the references to which unfortunately no longer exists, as explained in the little sidebar note on The development team of WikkaWiki is considering resurrecting a public WikiPing server again though.

JavaWoman (member of the Wikka Development Team)

That sounds great! Thank you for reverting the page, on OneBigSoup; Yes, it has “fallen” quite a bit, due to lack of attention– the OneBigSoup project was a bit too ambitious, and I focused on LocalNames instead.

But I think the WikiPing is a great idea, and I’m glad y’all are taking up the cause. I’d be happy to booster for it at RecentChangesCamp and so on.

See InternetExchange, and if there are any services that I can perform for y’all, please don’t hesitate to ask. Don’t worry about “price.” If there’s something I can do for you, please just let me know.

Have a nice birthday, Lion!

Thanks for updating BannedContent! It automatically fixes spammers on Oddwiki, too. :)

BobLetcher here… Lion, i am really confused, as if i were doing my own version of “Who’s on First?” Your postings sound like you are intending to return to working on GT stuff, while DK’s email reply to your email sounds like he was acknowledging a parting of your collective ways. To illustrate: “which (wiki) is “new”? No, which is on second.” I am uncertain which purpose to be working toward, on which wiki. i also don’y know who else is working on the project--and that matters to me because you, sam, and mattis seemed to appreciate the substance i contributed, while my contributions drew little comment from people affiliated with DK. So i don’t know what to contribute, or whether to make the effort to contribute.

may i suggest a co-evolution approach to resolving any differenced that may linger between your views and DK’s.

I’m uncertain as well. I think it’s something to talk about on:

DavidKorten has a plan and a strategy and a thing he is doing. He can’t be bothered to learn this wiki stuff, or even just working openly. I’m fine with that, even though it’s not something that I, personally, can do / have energy for.

I think if you contribute what’s in your heart and on your mind to the wiki Sam made, that is “the one I just linked to,” that there will be people who will respond. Terry Sullivan approached, and as far as I can tell, is ready to play.

There is very good reason to believe that DavidKorten will not change his perspective.

If you want to talk about this, I’d be happy to engage it, because I have a lot of energy towards understanding the digital divide as it applies to activism, and that is a big part of what this is. But this would be a conversation for the other wiki, which several of us are trying to build energy around. I think it’d be a great starting conversation.

BobLetcher here. Thanks, Lion, for replying. I needed some clarification--and along with you, i remain uncertain, even with your reply. but thankfully i don’t feel as alone. I still don’t know what to write about or who to write to/for--and i haven’t even decided whether to write at all. Feminist argue, “The personal is political”--and io’d like to say for myself, here, “The political is personal [for me].”, or at least that my feelings can get involved, in spite of all my effort not to allow them to do so.

Amidst all that, i still have some things to say. But i’ll to that over on the conversation page. one more thing: do you have any reaction to the powerpoint slides i sent some time ago?

Lion, have you read Wiki:ZenAndTheArtOfMotorcycleMaintenance? I have re-read it just recently and it does sound a lot like the things you talk about. He even describes a bunch of patterns and antipatterns!

Neat! No, I haven’t read it, though I’ve had the opportunity to do so; My dad has it in his bookshelf.

Can you tell me a little about the overlap? I’m just kind of curious, now that you say this. :)

I can try, although it’s subjective. He explores the differences between the “romantic” and “scientific” thoughts, trying to reconcile them, and comes up with a notion of Quality – something that cannot be described, only felt, and tells us how good something is. Then he tries to locate Quality, and decides it must be beyond the form and the substance, between the subject and the object, it’s something that creates form and substance, or at least our perceptions of it – he didn’t say it out loud, but it might be similar to Consciousness, soul, etc. He does compare Quality with Tao, Buddha, Dharma, Areté, etc. and comes to the conclusion they all talk about the same phenomenon. He also says that when we are focused on what we do, we are close to the Quality, can feel it and make good decisions – and goes on talking about patterns of motorcycle maintenance, and anti-patterns (which he calls Gumption Traps). He writes: 1} He also talks a lot about WhatIsScience and what’s wrong with it. Of course my description is crude and blunt, he does leave place for doubt and a lot of space for private interpretation. I think you can’t just tell it in few words, you have to read the book.

Okay! :D I guess I have to then!

I’ll ask for a copy at SaturdayHouse, I’m sure somebody has it. :)

I read it some times back, and I recommend it (or at least, the Emile from last century recommends it).

Now that I think of it, the general tone of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and the things Lion say; if I were to map out the world of idea,s I’d put them pretty close to each other.

Mattis entirely from the last century read it as a teen, doesn’t remember but the great effect it made on him, recommends it therefore and wouldn’t wonder at all if Lion’s ideas resonate to it (or the other way around, depending on what ever direction you think time goes).

Mattis! So good to hear from you! How are you?

Are you still in Italy?

Hi lion, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Hope you’re doing fine.

irc.freenode #onebigsoup or #wikinet maybe? The first is the bigger idea, I admit. ~ Your responsibility. :)

I agree – it is my responsibility. I have a new idea about how to approach it, and I’d like to discuss it with you. I think you’ll like it. ;)

As per a prior email, we cannot process any more checks. Alternatives are possible. Please advise.

OK – I’ll just send you one big check with the remaining balance – can you tell me by email what it is, and what address to mail to?

Okay. I’ll have that done tomorrow (080225).

Would you happen to have the backup of the WikiFutures? and the wikiLegal wikis lying around somewhere? Would you mind bringing them back up?

Futures is up:

WikiLegal?, which is way old, is probably archived… somewhere…

It’s sure not in the host directory where all the other wiki are.

I thought WikiLegal? was from before I even knew you!

I learned about them from the WikiFeatures wiki. I think that wikis should live longer than their communities – you know, the FlywheelPattern?… Could you also fix the file permissions so that the pages can be edited and spam removed? It would be also very helpful to be able to delete pages.

I am evaluating with a partner on whether to create and use a moinfarm, and if we do, I would donate wikis to host the taoriver content, if needed. Just thought I’d offer that. Will let you know, I need to get FastCGI? working on the server first.

Lion… Congratulations on the imminent announcement of your new roles and responsibilities!

  • Feel free to contact BobTrower for the passwords necessary to find out a bit more of what I’ve “volunteered” you for.
    • You are quite welcome to contact me via email or voice call to learn more.
  • Obviously, the Hwo:2008-09-17 Announcement will be delayed until you’ve “accepted” this role in this Mission (Impossible).
  • Thank you for your patience in waiting for me to finally (even start) answering you question of what “What are you planning for me.”
    • At least its given me a chance to demonstrate a bit of where I might fit on a TrustMetric scale, so you may be able to make a better informed judgment regarding your acceptance.

Sincerely yours – Hans

Per your request: ActionResearch wiki! (can be moved to another domain if desired)

Thanks! I look forward to beginning on it, today.


  • I am currently doing a bit of work that seems related to LinkLanguage, all be it mostly in the context of “tags and acronyms, jargon, …”. Since I do not wish to distract you from your planned revisions, I thought I’d best ask if you wish me to add some of my thoughts to your workInProcess, perhaps as “Discussion” material, or if you would prefer me to remain aloof at least until you’ve made a bit more progress.

Hans, glad to hear it!

Tags, Acronyms, and Jargon are great.

Here are good places to put your ideas:

  • in the Discussion area – I’ll either work it into the main text (with your original words included,) or find another place to place it, or both.
  • or on a New page – create a new page with a name to your liking, and put it there

Don’t stay aloof– write, write, and write.

I look forward to reading!

  • “… aloof…” Nope. perhaps “respectful of the work of others” or “I’m really still a bit shy” :-)
  • I think I’ll try using the Discussion area this weekend, and then decide (later) it it needs to be removed to another area.

I’m not sure I understand exactly what is happening with these spam attacks and the subsequent deletions. It appears to me that the spammer is somehow wiping out the prior versions that exist. Then when the spam is deleted, all of the prior page history is effectively lost.

Is that correct?

That may be one possible scenario. Another possibility is that the pages didn’t exist before the spammer posted to them – they might have just followed a link to non-existing page and spam it. In either case, the only thing we can do is delete the spam, I think. Sorry for butting in.

Yeah – I don’t know.

It’s weird.

Didn’t PatrickAnderson have a page before?


Did we really not fill in CommunityWikiNamingPolicy, even though it’s listed on CategoryThisWiki?

It’s possible to me that we never filled these in, but, …

Radomir, I am absolutely certain that several of these pages existed.

Lion, As a result, I am particularly concern that we have lost content (unless there is a valid backup that I am not aware of for this particular site (that Alex may will know about) and that someone with Admin rights may be able to access).

I believe you.

I just looked to see the page database, ( ) but CW isn’t listed. I’m emailing Alex to ask what’s going on. (Done.)

I thought you might find this interesting for a few different reasons ( :-) )


I would make books a substantial actor, and find it strange that a magazine (Wired) didn’t even include magazines.

I don’t think it’s classicism that is leading me to books; Rather, I find that “the complex system of books + our environment” afford (WhatIsAffordance) concentration and meditation and allocation of proper time to the process of thinking and reflecting.

One day you said to me (at the underground Greek diner of all places) that different environments afford different thoughts.

I think you are extremely wise in valuing books at a higher level.

And I find your “reminder” quite timely, “grasshopper” :-). Hence, I’m off to meditate in the Rockies for all of 2009-09, as of Thursday. Heck, I’m even planning to listen to John Denver music on the drive out there.

If that doesn’t alter my environment and resulting “Weltanshauung” adequately, I may have to get very much more serious about joining one of my associates in his proposed climb of Mount Kilimonjaro in the next year.

Country road, take me home. :)

I’m happy to see you online again, and with lots of new experiences, as I can see. Please forgive me for using this opportunity, but maybe you could find a moment to see why the original domain of the wikifeatures wiki doesn’t work anymore? I know that it has been dead for ages, but maybe someone will find the accumulated knowledge handy…

Yikes! Radomir, you never need to ask for forgiveness. If anything, I need to apologise to you for not having your directions for TheStoryOfHope.

The domain isn’t working because we don’t have an IP address any more, at home; The wiring didn’t work out and we’re now using cable. As such, is permanently down.

I can point NetworkSolutions to host the domains elsewhere, though, … It’s been a long time since I’ve understood all those details, but I think I should be able to relearn it.

My work is almost entirely offline, now.

I, and 4 others, (presently,) are beginning the work of growing a society (material world commune) dedicated to a broad vision in service of all life.

Some of our principles include:

  • action & community (working with others)
  • the inspiration of humanity & life
  • the nourishment of the creative spirit within every individual
  • a flexible but tough spiritual, mental, and material way & vision
  • a profound dedication to real science (no "Quantum Out," or other such evasions)
  • esoterics, theory, and practice
  • computers, computer programming, UserInterface development, and so on are major subjects
  • so is mass media, HiveMind topics, education, the mainstream, and so on
  • all fields, everything open to reinterpretation

We are basically inspired by the FederationOfDamanhur.

This is the first I have ever written about this online. Please do not spread the news, but do feel free to write to me about it. I write this here only because I consider the CommunityWiki to be family.

The project is presently “semi-secret.” Basically, talk about it in person or on the phone (or Skype or whatever,) but don’t put it in print / digital-print. (Into records.)

Please, don’t point people to this page, either. You can do so verbally, (and with a written down URL on paper,) if there’s someone you think should know for some reason, but make sure they understand the semi-secrecy of the project.

Why? Because we don’t want to be putting any effort right now into publicity / PR / expectations / image / etc.,.

Because of this work, it is extremely unlikely that I will be engaged on CommunityWiki.


1. { What I have in mind now is a catalog of ``Gumption Traps I Have Known.’’ I want to start a whole new academic field, gumptionology, in which these traps are sorted, classified, structured into hierarchies and interrelated for the edification of future generations and the benefit of all mankind.

Gumptionology 101…An examination of affective, cognitive and psychomotor blocks in the perception of Quality relationships…3 cr,Vll,MWF. I’d like to see that in a college catalog somewhere.