Me ~ MeatBall:MarkDilley ~ WikiIndex:MarkDilley


That’s very interesting. It looks like they are collecting semantic relationships between words in all languages. It would help in automatic translation and machine interpretation of human text.LionKimbro
Some things are gelling for me a little bit. I am starting to understand that LinkLanguage is the language of the interenet, and it is our language. By ours, I mean all people who know how to speak it. I am suggesting that we think of a ConsensusPolling strategy for creating a [[.wiki_TLD?]] that is a public service, meaning no charges for it. We start a consensus poll on how and who we need to get that.
Found this excellent quote: “Eternal vigilance is the price of a wiki” - it rings true in many parts of my life…
Found what I consider to be the best wiki tutorial yet. A ScreenCast? by Jon Udell:
Found a wiki original… well not really. Like Geocities, we now have Wikicities:
Found this site: , it seems to speak to me about NameSpaces. Am I off on that?
Found a very interesting way for newbies to be introduced to wiki: StartHere, the idea sparked by the awesome WriteHere:StartHere


Thanks folks, trying to get the hang of this stuff, while not doing it often enough for it to stick. with the SeoContest? stuff, I am trying to treat it somewhat like a ForestFire and move all pages to SeoContest? and delink them. What do you all think?

Also, I am embarrassed to say, I can’t find where to add my name in the UserPreferences?… a gentle push in the right direction would be appreciated. Maybe I figured it out, maybe I have a cookie issue? nope looks good. yea for me, now to get that damned picture shrunk down before pirahna ;-)

hello mark, well, i there is no UserPreferences?. you have figured it out!

you sign at the bottom of a page, you get cookie, you keep moving. except for the part of cropping & shrinking down to a smaller picture. do you need some help?

btw- thanks for stopping by the wiklossary

here’s a pic of you 48 x 48, in case you want to use it. MarkDilleySmallPic



I’m not sure if the portrait: syntax only works with http:// linked images?

(btw- sorry pir! i didn’t see that mark asked you to do this, till after i’d dun it. oops. )

I’d love to use several fotos here and have the choise which one I use..It would also be nice to be able to decide about their size.

I arbitrarily chose Heather’s picture for you, Mark. I hope you don’t mind. 😊

Thanks folks! I think I will stick with Alex and his arbitrary choice, thanks to Heather for her work, and to pirahna. Best, Mark

Mark, would you think about linking to that from RobertsRules?

You may also be interested in OpenSpace. I do not believe you’ll be able to use it in your situation, at least not without significant modification.

But I do think you’ll be able to see some interesting things in there, if you don’t already know them.

Lion, I think I either made the page on wards wiki for open space or I immediately contacted Micheal Herman at GlobalChicago? and had a two hour conversation (sound familiar! ;-) a few years ago. Yea I love the concept of OpenSpace, he is having a great 3-4 day work shop next week. Problem is it is $500 dollars. As for linking to RobertsRules, I will go ahead and put this over there. I just didn’t want to seem oppositional, only adding my experience to the mix. Cool? is spamming World Wide Wiki, for christmas sake, it is not even indexed by google…!

And oddly enough it is happening at this very moment!

I like rewording in DocumentMode; I just don’t like rewording in ThreadMode.

If someone changes something I say in ThreadMode, it sort of spooks me out, because it looks like I said something that I didn’t say. And that’s just creepy, to me.

People who know me know I never say, “it’s a hassle to…” if it’s something that I’m putting more force into. I only say “it’s a hassle to…” if it’s something that I’m only mildly bothered by.

“But dammit! The LimitationsOfMailingLists really (beeeep!) me off!”

“What’s worse, nobody wants to do anything about it!”

“Instead, there’s some sort of weird TechnoConservatism? at play, something I can’t quite put my finger on. People want to not change how the technology works, even if the new idea is clearly much better!”

See: I’m really mad about this. So saying it’s a hassle: It’s just not what I said. And it feels creepy to me when I see that if I was really mad about something, and then it was changed to make it look like I wasn’t really mad about it.

Now: If the community has norms, and doesn’t want to see * i * * h on it’s pages, that’s toootally fine and cool with me. I can understand that. I’d just rather have it beep’ed out, rather than have everything arranged to make it look like I said something that I didn’t actually say. (Or, more importantly: Making it look like I felt something, that I didn’t really feel. That is: it made it look like mild annoyance, when actually: This is something that is really frustrating to me.)

The only time I’ll edit someone’s threadmode, is to link something. Even then, since links add meaning (LinkLanguage,) it makes me nervous.

Over-analysis out! 😊

Is substantive ThreadMode editing allowed here? I guess we should set some sort of policy on this (or have we already? I don’t really remember).

I’m in favor of rewording. Not just removing offensive language, but even for example rephrasing sentences to make them shorter or easier to read, or deleting parts of the post that are redundant and boring. But something like “(edited)” might be attached to the signature in these cases to mark it.

Practically, though, this would almost never happen even if allowed, so maybe it’s better not to allow it, and to just make more effort to absorb comments into DocumentMode instead.

As for offensive language in particular, I think we should by default do just what MarkDilley did, i.e. replace it with nicer language when we notice it. By default, replace with something else rather than have it starred or “bleeped”. Starring or (bleep!) is okay though if that’s what the original author really wants.

Let’s not be too trigger happy with correcting language, though. I often edit thread mode (also on other wikis) to remove stuff that has been answered, to rephrase the question to match my answer, etc.

I agree Alex, not to get trigger happy with corrective language, but not to be afraid to do it either. For me, this is wiki, it doesn’t matter which mode. If the person (in this case Lion) doesn’t like the change, changing it back works. I just was reading along and said, “I would rather we didn’t use that word”, so I changed it, very publicly, not trying to sneak anything by anyone, or place words in anyones mouth. Just flaging a concern. It is wiki :-)

yep 😊

Alex, I really like the OddwikiOrganisationImage!! I am not sure if I like the robot figure doing all the work, or the fact that the Wiki Administration is inserted into the brain. But overall it is fantastic!

Hm, like Lion, you don’t like the robot details… I must fix this. What I’m trying to say is that currently we don’t do much community work. We basically have everything scripted – no need to register before getting started, no need to ask for help before migrating away again. And the script gives us a “report” of what’s going on.

“We” control the script, which controls the infrastructure (the wiki and its features).

Perhaps the problem is that we would like to think of us as “supporting a community” but the fact is that we don’t do much. We enable people to help themselves, we don’t do any direct user-to-user helping at all.

Maybe we can split the robot into an army of little robots – one for every script or feature. Then the “migration bot” would be controlled by users, not administrators.

can it be obvious - like a box that says “software is easy to use and automatic for users” - ? something like that.

I like the army of little robots, because when we do that, we can start grouping them into functional domains, and grant transparency.

We can work in the spam filter explanation, the report keeping explanation, stuff like that.

Hi Mark: I am preparing to use Skype and MoonEdit in tandem with the open source course managment system called Moodle. (Moodle has to be great as one of the Moodle tools for course presentation is a built-in wiki engine for incorporating one or more wikis as part of a course.)

I found my way here (CommunityWiki) from a link form MoonEdit where CommunityWiki was listed as a place to discuss and/or find out more about MoonEdit. CommunityWiki looks like it has a lot of other good stuff as well.

I found MoonEdit while looking for tools that could be used in conjunction voice over the internet like Skype. I hope this edit works--if not I will have to find the docs and do some reading to get this right 😊 JohnDeBruyn

Not the right place maybe, but it was the only page on cw wikitorial was mentioned on. After it failed so greatly and they all noe think such doesn’t work we are preparing on an open letter to the LA Times. Ting36 today has it as a topic.

Hey John!

We’ve been using Gobby lately, actually, because, unlike MoonEdit, Gobby is OpenSource. (Or perhaps FreeSoftware; I’m not sure how they prefer to be lableled.)

Moodle is interesting; It feels like a GroupWare package to me, rather than SocialSoftware.

Moodle seems to draw a line between administration and users. It seems to sort of hard code a relationship between the visitor, and the teacher. Or the visitor, and the moderator.

Perhaps this is a dividing ground between “GroupWare” and “SocialSoftware.” E-mail doesn’t seem to have moderators. Wiki the same. I mean: They have people who perform policing. But the policing isn’t a HardSecurity feature of the system.

When I imagine visiting Moodle sites, I feel like a visitor. It’s like something has been specially made and prepared for me. Not only do I feel this way because of the way other people would interact with me, but rather: I feel this way because of the way the software treats me. Human segregation: “Please give us some background information about you.” Machine segregation: Administration box in the corner. Can I post my own section entries? Probably not; The access to propose entries is enforced by software, not humans.

Well, anyways. I’m sure you’ve already heard these ideas before.

Software development approaches seem to go from two different angles:

  • Give everyone access to everything, and then restrict from there.
  • Give access to the administrator only, and then open up access from there.

Moodle strikes me as the 2nd, wiki as the 1st. Having worked in the 1st for so long, the 2nd just rubs me the wrong way.

WikiPedia seems like something that has worked towards an equilibrium, starting from open access to everything. I’m not sure of a good example from the other way around, maybe [[2ch?]] or something like that.

Not sure about the registration stuff, maybe go ask at Meatball? :-) Both are good communities, probably should be one, somehow, in some way. :-) I am a veteran wiki lurker for the most part. I have lots of stuff to say, but I am not so refined in the art of writing, or more importantly, the art of patience to write. I am really interested in WikiBeginners? and the culture around peoples access into this (meta this) community of wiki. errr ehhhmm how long have you had the wiki bug? :-)

Mark … I’ve had the wiki bug for 5 years since doing a summer internship where a wiki was used to coordinate informal intern get-togethers across research labs in the Boston area. I have a rather enormous personal emacs-wiki.el wiki … I basically wrote my dissertation using a hybrid of emacs-wiki and LaTeX modes. I look forward to exploring our shared interest in WikiBeginners? and the “wiki culture”. I’ve figure out how to register for WikiSym (thanks for the pointer). I lurked on WardsWiki for years before making my first edit there 😊



  • here is the sort of thing we’re racing against

telcos should be paying - google et all..

  • Lion, thanks for the link - pretty intense…

Hey Mark, here’s a guy BludgeoningTheData and trying to have his email (and other communications) public (Hear that, Lion?). Here’s his post about it at omidyar and my questions and his response. I’d be happy to talk more about it here, and if something interesting comes up, we could invite him here.

MarkDilley - that is interesting and yes the site is chaotic, maybe a lesson for me :-) Here is what Ed Vielmetti (who we are trying to get to RecentChangesCamp sez on the matter:

Hey everyone, where the hell is the link to the picture of HowWikiWorks? with the person fixing the painting? → WhyWikiWorks!

I LOVE the side bar. darn cool! If anyone needs any brain dead work, please hop skip over to - See many of you soon! :-) Best, Mark

Mark, have you see EvanProdromou ‘s motto: “There is no ‘I’ in ‘Wiki’.” Awesome! --TedErnst

two questions. How to map LocalNames to WikiIndex - interwiki style. and how to get the cool light bulb on the sidebar. best, mark


Lightbulbs: Copy the others. I think it’s tied to gmail access, or something like that.

InterWiki links to WikiIndex: not sure.

cool I will cut and past the lightbulb stuff. WikiIndex is mapped to the meatball page, would like it to map to like the MeatBall:MarkDilley does.

Lion, glad you like the communicate or die idea. :-) It is a crappy drupal overkill site. but better than nothing!

BTW, you must read Anda's game.

Believe it or not, it’s explicitely about unions & Internet technology.

It deserves a blog mention, on CommunicateOrDie?, after y’all read it.

Thanks Lion, either through you or stumbling across it on the internet I have read it before. It is great! I will try to put some thoughts together for a post. Best, Mark

MarkDilley: cyber activist translators

MarkDilley: The Right-wing Seeks to Take Your Internet

Blink - ThinSlicing? - It’s a book about rapid cognition, about the kind of thinking that happens in a blink of an eye. Bank watch pbwiki

Mark, I think the conversation you carry about “bringing in the new, while allowing the advanced to work” is another important seed of thinking. It’s also related to ForFewAndMany.

Mark, I was quite serious when I said: I’d like you to write about your “bringing in the new” theme. You’ve had something that you’ve been wanting to say an aweful lot, and you keep bringing it up. And I perceive that there’s something very important there. I just need to hear it. It doesn’t need to be eloquently expressed, or meet any sort of guidlines.

I have a thought I want to attach to it, to put a little into the mix: It occurs to me that, by making an invitation and joining program, you are taking on a karmic burden. Because: I would think that you would need to be confident that it was a good system, a stable system, a secure system, and ethical system, and so on, that you were pulling people into.

“Now, if only we had a system that tracked points…”

“All you need is to replace points with real units (e.g. +10 LPEs (leopold’s pint equivalents)), at which point recipients can probably be counted on to keep the score.” from Arbor Update comment stream

and Interesting example of the disputed territories of web 2.0


Wiki + Google Maps

I see you already know about . Have you seen ?

Hi David, I have seen it, but in my browser Camino, the site jams me up. What are some of the things that you really like about it?

Got a chance to meet Mark yesterday afternoon for about 4 hours. It was great to meet you F2F, Mark!

We discussed his ideas on “bringing in the new, while allowing the advanced to work”, the Zefrank phenomenon, OrganizedCulture, BarCampBank, LiteracyOfHumanNature, SocialSynergy:ForesightPrinciple, Solari, RadicalInclusiveness, MeatBallWiki, WikiIndex, BarCampBank, SocialSynergy:PeerInvest, SocialSynergy:WikiVenture, THe Collaborative Microenterprise Paradigm, the Condorcet's jury theorem and much about our personal lives. So, it was a rich discussion.

found old notes on ExperiencedInteractionWithInexperience from conversation with a friend:

How do you provide the inexperience with the tools that allow them to participate without hand-holding and without disruption? Or with limited hand-holding and limited disruption? And if there needs to be handholding and disruption, how do we deal with that? [The question that occurs to me now, as I sit in this airport and type, is: Might disruption be something that is, at times, in some ways, desirable? Does disruption produce anything that’s valuable to the community? So that it’s not just something to be weathered or managed, but something to be wanted, even sought. And then my next question is: if there is such a thing as desirable disruption, what conditions make that possible? I’m not sure if my line of questioning makes sense or if it’s interesting to you, but it’s what I find myself wondering right now. I’m thinking again of teaching. There is such a thing as a too-docile student. You want a degree of resistance. But the right kind of resistance!

WikiPatterns is cool! I am learning a lot already by reading it.

There is a debate in my mind abotu WysiwygWiki vs. WikiSyntax. I think that WysiwygWiki is good for the non-Wikiliterate. A choice is the best, I suppose (like MoinMoin). Then again, WikiPedia requires syntax knowledge, and look at how many people edit and cotnribute to it… I think it goes to show that people will often learn a foreign technology regime if they are really interested in whatever activity is going on. But, I also don’t think that one can always rely on that for WikiFounding.

I don’t now a lot about Wiktionary as a project or set of processes. But, I am starting to learn about templates in wikis. And, it looks like got fed up with the way the Wiktionary project was handling templates as the project grew. According to it looks like there were too many sources for templates. So is trying to be the “One True” source for Wiktionary templates. (“templates” being transcluded data that is part of a new page). That way, when they update or change a template, the change is universal, I guess.

See also: OmegaWiki? is the first project to try out the WikiData? scheme. Kind of like HansWobbe’s MicroBlocks?, in a way. I think eventually WikiMedia will move all of certain types of data to this WikiData? format, if it works out. I like the idea on the surface…that you can update, and have that update apply to all of the places that include the content you are editing. As long as it’s desireable to have that type of action, anyway. From :

Imagine that you can edit the content of an infobox on Wikipedia (e.g. Germany) with one click, that you get an edit form specific to the infobox you are editing, and that other Wikipedias automatically and immediately use the same content (unless it is specific to your locale).

Imagine that some data in an article can be automatically updated in the background, without any work from you - whether it is the development of a company stock, or the number of lines of code in an open source project.

Imagine that you can easily search wiki-databases on a variety of subjects, without knowing anything about wikis.

Dear Mark Dilley,

Alas, today and its aliases ( , , etc.) are offline.

Some of those addresses give a “server not found”, but one of them gave this message:

  Database error
  		A database query syntax error has occurred.
  This may indicate a bug in the software.
  The last attempted database query was:
  <blockquote><tt>(SQL query hidden)</tt></blockquote>
  from within function "<tt>MediaWikiBagOStuff::_doinsert</tt>".
  MySQL returned error
  "<tt>1044: Access denied for user: 'dbo205328734@%'
  to database   'db205328734' (</tt>".

This is why I want a fault-tolerant wiki. Is there any way to convert WikiIndex into a more fault-tolerant wiki? You know, I should have done the WikiFeatures:FailSafeWiki thing a long time ago. It looks like CommunityRepository is one possible way to implement a fault-tolerant wiki.

-- David Cary

(This is an experiment in using wiki instead of email)


Define external redirect: ThinSlicing ScreenCast SocialMapApril WikiBoxes CommunicateOrDie OmegaWiki SeoContest TechnoConservatism ClickToWiki MicroBlocks WikiData IcannWIki GlobalChicago ChangeThreadModeToDocumentMode 2ch .wiki TLD UserPreferences RefactoringTheOrganization WikiBeginners

EditNearLinks: DocumentMode LaTeX WikiMedia WikiIndex MeatBallWiki ConsensusPolling BarCampBank FreeSoftware MoinMoin WikiPatterns GroupWare HardSecurity NameSpaces ForestFire OpenSource WysiwygWiki WardsWiki


The same page elsewhere: