MultilingualExperimentDiscussion

MultilingualExperiment

[da]Multisprogs experiment
[de]Mehrsprachiges Experiment
[en]Multilingual experiment
[eo]Multlingva eksperimento
[es][es°°°
[fr]Expérience multilingue
[he]ניסוי רב לשוני
[it]Esperimento multilingue

The page became too long. Its beginning is archived on MultilingualExperimentArchive1

[en]The idea is to get people together working on a common thing. This is fun. Correcting one simple comma-mistake gives you the feeling of being part of something big, in a single language already, even more when more languages are involved. It was a highlight of sensitivity to me when some weeks ago Hellmut Leitner and I translated NoLeader to German. Originaly it was done on NoLeader - turning this page into a multilingual page. For persuable reasons Alex split this into NoLeader and Keine Führer. Multilingual pages bear a potential for Babel-Chaos, and we are traditionally afraid of that (see holy bible). But nowadays we have wiki, background colors for the different languages, a group Multilingual and so on. There is less to fear (maybe on the Babel issue the guys who wrote the holy bible were really wrong and not propperly looking into the future) As NoLeader is simple, wise and beautiful, as it is one of the oldest texts of mankind and as it's kind of a concentrated "goal statement" not only for Community-Wiki itself but also for a possible selfsteered future world-governement of the world-people, I'd like (within the group MultilingualExperiment) to restart my attempt to have it translated into multiple languages. When looking for contributors in further languages I have to offer some nice toys. Something to do where the feeling of success comes in imediately. Bringing up ScarboroughFair is a completly personal issue, but it isn't nessecarilly wrong. NoLeader and ScarboroughFair are both (relatively to their respective origin cultures) old texts. Whereas NoLeader has this calm Om going from its very middle like a warm stone lying on your stomach, ScarboroughFair devides the world in two, in a here and a desireable there, like the two ends of a rainbow and it makes this rainbow shine up between the readers here and the desireable there - Scarborough. Her heart (which has to do with WomenAndMenAndWiki and the mentioned 101 : 99 progress again). Both texts relate to one another, both are true and truth is always somewhere in between the two.
[en]English is the main language in the internet, I'd therefore like to use English Camelbone titles. But more than a monolingual page a multilingual one does need a short editable title in all different languages used on it. Camelbone-title ergo is NoLeader. As this exists already I add Multilingual. We can later fix this in case it turns out into something. NoLeaderMultilingual 040111 13:48

[en]Is the new intro too long? 040116 15:27

[en]The introduction should be far shorter as this page is the frontpage of the Cluster, the rest can be distributed to other pages.
[de] Die Einführung müsste viel kürzer sein, weil diese Seite ja die Gruppen-Hauptseite ist; den Rest der Seite können wir auf andere Seiten verteilen.

[en]Completly Kandinski! WikiGoesCompletelyKandinski? - who dares?
The [new)tag) should only make a 3mm broad vertical grey line come up on the very right of the screen. You shortly look there for orientation when scrolling down. The languge indication background color should not stop with the written letters but fill the space to the [new) tag induced vertical grey line. Hugh! MultiLingualCompTech + AdvicesForNewbies 04011621:45

[en]This is not possible using CSS, unfortunately – at least I don't know how.

[en]I got familiar with the grey background. It would be good if the grey is always a little bigger. When the first line is colored the grey should start 1 or 2 mm above and the same with the last colored line and the grey finishing below. You can see it on ScarboroughFairDiscussion, where by accident the pic makes the grey and colored not end on the same line. - Depending on font size (step through your browsers zoom)

[en] Translating is like going by bicycle.

[en] I agree. That is a beautiful way of expressing it. Do we have a page yet on this topic – something like WaysToReadDocuments?? There we could discuss "active reading", "passive reading", "proof reading", "speed reading", "summarizing", and other ways of interacting with a document.

[en]Thanks. As far as I know we do not but I don't know very far. WaysToReadDocuments?

[en]Note the checkboxes at the bottom of every page where you can choose which languages to show on multilingual pages. The default is to show all languages.

[en]This is very, very nice. I whish now all the french translations xtof did - thanks again, well done - would float back to the pages where the contents originally was discussed/explained - as it is the same contents, just in another code (French - a nice code). I whish there was a short editable title for each page that shows the recent changes according to the choice you take in the checkboxes on the recent changes too. So that all languages here have the same chance. Right now we have a predefined hierarcy. The camelbone title are in english (xtof added a bunch of french camelbones). Let's keep them in english but let's hide them away (a poppup for the camelbone title would do, I think). We'd then have the editable title, and we could have it translated. When a title is not translated yet it shows "not translated yet", when you hover over it you see the english camelbone title though. You first checkbox only your non-english mothertongue. You see many "not yet translated"s. You add English in the checkbox, a bit more text comes up now, color, confusion, sure, but you feel encouraged to translate. To have it all like it was before you just check English. This keeps going 'round in my mind, please tell me why it is bullshit, please.
Very, very nice the filters, excellent actually.
Default is all languages visible, that means all boxes checked. They should therefore all be checked by default. Using the boxes is substracting something, hence unchecking a language. Having the boxes empty by default, but showing all languages is confusing and gives you the feel to add something. You do not. You substract something. Thanks Alex, mighty well done!
Maybe instead of "show!" for the button "show/hide" or "activate" or "activ" or "show" without "!" would be good? "On/Off"?
Steven on IRC proposed: When only activating one language the marker ([en)) should be invisible and the background color should be automaticly be turned off. Good idea I think. Sounds a bit beasty to programm. Difficult?

I'll have to think a bit more about the interface you are proposing. I would prefer an interface that is both simple to use and simple to implement. Simple implementations are easily tested, debugged, improved, and deployed. This is why I think I can often add new stuff to Oddmuse so quickly: The essential parts are rather simple. Maybe editable page titles and links to translations can be added elegantly using RdfForWiki

The difference between all boxes checked and no boxes checked is simple:

  • No boxes checked: Everything is shown.
  • All boxes checked: The languages you checked will be shown. Therefore all languages that don't have a checkbox will be hidden! sv, ko, ja, and all the other thousand languages are not available as checkboxes…

[en] MattisManzel idea is very interesting but I think the project is too much oriented by the way of using technology and functionalties and not enough by users I mean the community which would use them. So I think LuigiBertuzzi is right when he says "This wiki should probably become a multilingual environment - or meeting place - before multilingual solutions for page maintenance can be implemented with no waste of time and energy ". http://wistro.radiophare.net/index.php/CubedeNecker
[de] MattisManzel /s idee ist sehr interessant, aber ich denke, das Projekt is zu sehr am Gebrauch von Technologoien und Funktionalitäten orientiert und zu wenig an den Anwendern, ich meine die Gemeinschaft, die es benutzen wird. Deshalb denke ich LuigiBertuzzi hat Recht, wenn er sagt: "Dieses wiki sollte vielleicht eine multipelprachliche Umgebung - oder ein solcher Treffpunkt - werden, bevor multipelprachliche Lösungen zur Seitenwartung ohne Zeit und Energievelust eingerichtet werden können". http://wistro.radiophare.net/index.php/CubedeNecker
[fr] L'idée de MattisManzel est trés intéressante mais je pense que le projet est trop orienté par la technologie et les fonctionnalités et pas assez par les utilisateurs c'est à dire la communauté appelée à les utiliser. C'est pourquoi je pense que LuigiBertuzzi a raison lorsqu'il dit " ce wiki devrait d'abord devenir un environnement multilingues - ou un espace de rencontre - avant de chercher des solutions, cela permettrait une implémentation sans perte de temps et d'énergie". http://wistro.radiophare.net/index.php/Les3Niveaux --SylvieBourguet

[en] Suggestions to try to create a space dedicated to multilingual practices :
1-Give access to resources to find help to translate:
Examples of bilingual dictionnaries online :
see MultilingualNotepad

2- Translate in different languages, of course:)
The translation have to be the active-principle which defines this space, because without this constraint it's not possible to let appear the specificity of this space, in this case multilingual aspect. The process of translation would become indissociable of the way of the space is working.
If we keep the idea that it's very laborious to translate in different languages but necessary :) maybe we could view this space in a ludic way.

[fr]Suggestions pour tenter de créer un espace dédié aux pratiques multilingues :
1-Proposer un accés à des ressources d'aide à la traduction :
Exemples de dictionnaires Bilingues en ligne :
voir MultilingualNotepad

2-Traduire en plusieurs langues, évidement :)
La traduction devrait être le principe-actif qui définit cet espace, car sans cette contrainte on ne peut pas rendre perceptible la spécificité de cet espace, en l'occurrence d'être multilingue. Le processus de traduction deviendrait indissociable du fonctionnement de l'espace.
Si on retient que c'est trés laborieux de traduire dans différentes langues mais nécessaire :) on pourrait peut-être envisager le développement de cet espace de manière ludique. --SylvieBourguet

[ner] [en] Yes - I agree and I wonder if this could be the opportunity to extend the concept of "translation", in order to understand the type of environment or space we need to define (or perceive). SylvieBourguet has shown us a direction we should try and explore now, because Europe has just become a more complex social environment than it used to be, and because the mistakes which have been made when it was a less complex place have never been fully analysed. I have entered a tentative comment about this Imbroglio polyglotte to sum up what I mean …. before I know how I may end up talking about it. If it sounds understandable I'll be happy to discuss its improvement and progress on this page --LuigiBertuzzi

moved here from WikiFolks:

[en]I changed on the sequence of paragraphs here. I recommend
[de]Ich habe die Reihenfolge der Absätze hier geändert. Ich empfehle
[fr]J'ai modifié la séquence des paragraphes ici. Je recommande
[it]Ho modificato la sequenza dei paagrafi, con questa proposta

[en]paragraph-en
[de]paragraph-de
[fr]paragraph-fr
[it]paragraph-it

[en]paragraph-en
[de]paragraph-de
[fr]paragraph-fr
[it]paragraph-it

[en]The advantage is that readers of both languages have the contents closer together, it's more pleasant for the eye, easier to learn the other language when reading. The disadvantage is only having to type a couple o times more [ xx ]. No readability disadvantage is implied, as you can cut out the german paragraphs easylily using only en checked in the language filter boxes below. Try them out! Nothing checked means show all languages.
[de]Der Vorteil ist, das Leser beider Sprachen den Inhalt näher beieinander haben, es ist angenehmer für's Auge, einfacher die andere Sprache beim lesen zu lernen. Der Nachteil ist allein, dass man [ xx ] ein paar mal öfter tippen muss. Es hängt kein Nachteil für die Lesbarkeit daran, da man die deutschsprachigen Absätze einfach ausblenden kann, indem man unten in den Sprachfeldern nur en aktiviert. Probiert sie aus! Nichts angekreuzt bedeutet, zeige alle Sprachen.
[fr]L'avantage est que les lecteurs de plusieurs langues disposent des contenus les plus proches assemblés, c'est plus agréable à l'oeil, plus facile pour apprendre l'autre langue au moment de la lecture. L'inconvénient est d'avoir seulement à saisir plusieurs fois. Pas d'inconvénient de lisibilité parce que vous pouvez couper les paragraphes en allemand en uitlisant seulement la boîte à cocher en dans les boîtes de filtres de langues en bas de page. Essayez ! Rien de coché signifie que toutes les langues s'affichent.
[it]Chi legge più lingue ha il vantaggio di trovare i contenuti ravvicinati, in modo più gradevole alla vista, facilitando l'apprendimento delle altre lingue visualizzate. Il solo svantaggio è la necessità di inserire la selezione nella barra delle lingue a fondo pagina - [en] Why the language bar is shown at the bottom of the page ? Would it be better displaying it at the top of the page ? [it] - La leggibilità si può quindi adattare alle proprie preferenze. Se non si fanno selezioni vengono visualizzate tutte le lingue disponibili.

[en]Very good proposal Luigi. Maybe we'd need a MultilingualExperimentWiki? (on Oddmuse, doubtlessly)
[de]Sehr guter Vorschlag Luigi. Vielleicht würden wir ein MultilingualExperimentWiki? brauchen (auf Oddmuse ohne Zweifel)
[fr]Trés intéressante proposition Luigi. Peut-être que l'on pourrait envisager un wiki dédié à l'ExperimentationMultilingue? (sur Oddmuse, évidement)
Tentativo in italiano con http://wordreference.com/it/ :)
[it]Proposta molto bene Luigi. Può darsi che ci sarebbe bisogno di un wiki MultilingueEsperimento? (senza dubbio su Oddmuse)

[en] - Why not Mattis? If Sylvie agrees, of course ;) -
[de] - Warum nicht, Mattis? Wenn Sylvie einverstanden ist, gewiss doch.
[fr] - Pourquoi pas Mattis? …… ;) -
[it] - Perché no Mattis? Se Sylvie è d'accordo, naturalmente ;) -

[en]YES :) Maybe we can start by listing advantages and problems about multinlingual translation, but also listing existing tools, or also examples of multilingual documents, … a kind of inventory of fixtures. A game of interactions between the space of experiment and this space of discussion could be a way to let emerge solutions or at least allow identification of elements of potential solutions.
[de]JA :) Man könnte beginnen, indem man die Vorteile und Probleme multipelsprachiger Übersetzung auflistet, ebenso vorhandene Werkzeuge oder Beispiele für multipelsprachige Dokumente, … so eine Art Inventur des Bestehenden. Ein Spiel der Wechselwirkungen zwischen dem experimentellen Raum und diesem Diskussionsraum könnte einen Weg bereiten, zu Lösungen zu kommen, - oder zumindest zur Nennung von Elementen für potentielle Lösungen.
[fr]OUI :) On peut peut-être commencer par lister les avantages et les problèmes liés à la traduction multilingue, mais aussi les outils à disposition, ou encore des exemples de documents multilingues, …une sorte d'état des lieux. Un jeu d'intéractions entre l'espace d'expérimentation et cet espace de discussion pourrait être un moyen de faire émerger des "solutions" ou du moins de permettre l'identification d' élèments de solutions potentielles.
[it]SI :) Forse possiamo cominciare elencando i vantaggi e i problemi della traduzione multilingue, oltre agli strumenti disponibili, o agli esempi di documenti multilingue, …. una specie di inventario di effetti personali che possono diventare parte del contesto che si vuole ottenere. Un gioco interattivo tra lo spazio dell'esperimento e questo spazio di discussione potrebbe servire a fare emergere soluzioni possibili, o almeno a permettere l'individuazione degli elementi di soluzioni possibili. --SylvieBourguet

[en]For my next contribution to a definition of the problems of multilingual translation - in ten days from now when i'm back from a trip in the real world ;) - it would help me to know if my comment to this post on "Imbroglio Polyglotte" can be rated as relevant to this discussion; it might go in the direction of what the HardAndSoftLanguage was meant to talk about.
[de]….
[fr]Pour ma prochaine contribution en ce qui concerne une définition des problèmes relatifs à la traduction multilingue - dans une dizaine de jours à mon retours d'un voyage dans le vrai monde ;) - cela m'aiderait de savoir si mon propos en ce qui concerne mon post on "Imbroglio Polyglotte"est pertinent dans cettte discussion; cela pourrait aller dans la direction des échanges à propos de HardAndSoftLanguage
[it]Per il mio prossimo contributo a una definizione dei problemi della traduzione multilingue - fra una decina di giorni, quando torno da un viaggio nel mondo reale ;) - mi sarebbe di aiuto sapere se il mio commento a questo post su "Imbroglio Polyglotte" può ritenersi utile ai fini di questa discussione; potrebbe essere coerente con il tema che la pagina HardAndSoftLanguage intendeva trattare. --


[en]In my case your comment is relevant and I'm interested to work on problems of multilingual translation through the idea of a shared environment. An environment/system is a space with its own rules. Rules build a space of interpretations for users. Digital environment is built by languages ( programming languages) and these programming languages are build by others languages (words, mathematics). Language build each of us, it's vital. "Translation" exist each time we speak or write, each time we put our thoughts in words.
[de]….
[fr]En ce qui me concerne je trouve ton propos pertinent et cela m'intéresse de travailler sur les problèmes de traduction multilingue à travers l'idée d'un espace partagé. Un environnement/sytème est un espace avec ses propres règles. Les règles construisent un espace d'interprétations pour les utilisateurs. L'environnement numérique est une construction du langage, basé sur des langages de programmation qui sont eux-même construits par d'autres langages (mots, mathématiques). Le langage nous construit, c'est vital. La "traduction" existe chaque fois que nous parlons ou écrivons, chaque fois que nous mettons nos pensées sous forme de mots.
[it]Per quanto mi riguarda la tua proposta mi sembra pertinente; mi interessa lavorare sui problemi della traduzione multilingue utilizzando l'idea di un ambiente condiviso. Un ambiente/sistema è uno spazio con le proprie regole. Le regole costituiscono uno spazio interpretativo per gli utenti. L'ambiente digitale è creato da linguaggi (di programmazione) e questi, a loro volta, sono creati da altri linguaggi (parole, matematica). Il linguaggio crea ciascuno di noi, ci da vita. La "traduzione" esiste ogni volta che parliamo o scriviamo, ogni volta che i nostri pensieri sono rappresentati con delle parole. --SylvieBourguet


[en]MultilingualNotepad
To try to define a space to share elements which would interact trough discussions on MultilingualExperimentDiscussion, I propose a simple notepad to list different kind of ideas about multilingual translation. A notepad just to throw ideas without any idea about the issue. A simply way to make an inventory of the different kind of "material" which would be treated through MultilingualExperimentDiscussion.
[de]….
[fr]MultilingualNotepad
Pour essayer de définir un espace dont le but serait de partager des élèments pouvant intéragir à travers des discussions sur MultilingualExperimentDiscussion, je propose un simple bloc-notes pour lister differentes sorte d'idées à propos de la traduction multilingue. Un bloc-notes pour seulement jeter des idées sans savoir ce qu'elles pourront produire. Une manière simple de faire un inventaire des différents "matériaux" qui pourraient être traités à travers MultilingualExperimentDiscussion.
[it] Brogliaccio Multilingue
Per tentare di definire uno spazio che serva a condividere quegli "elementi" che si prevede possano interagire, tramite lo sviluppo di una Discussione per un esperimento multilingue, propongo di usare un brogliaccio (blocco per appunti) su cui elencare le diverse idee che possono riguardare la traduzione multilingue. In un brogliaccio si possono mettere tutte le idee che potenzialmente possono portare a risultati interessanti, prima di scegliere quelle definitive. Si tratta di un approccio semplificato al non facile compito di individuare i diversi tipi di "materiali" da impiegare in funzione dello sviluppo di una Discussione per un esperimento multilingue …. --SylvieBourguet

[en]TranslationChallenges
Looking back at MattisManzel introductory comments to this page (I sense the need for a back link to a specific comment here) …. and also looking back to my own experiences in different (ICT based - or standing upon ICT) working environments … I seem to understand there is a common ground for what Mattis says and what I experienced … it is probably a "middle ground/no man's land" between the recipients of something which needs to be conveyed and the source (sometimes within ourselves) of what it is to be conveyed … Not knowing now how to render/express this in a better way I have introduced a proposal that broadens the TranslationChallenges and the TranslationGateway drafting action.
[de] German for Translation Challenges here please

[fr]Les défis de la traduction
A propos des commentaires écrit par MattisManzel pour introduire cette page (il me semble nécessaire d'avoir un rétro-lien pour un commentaire spécifique ici)… et ce au regard de mes propres expériences passées dans différents environnements de travail (basés sur les TIC,ou en rapport avec les TIC )… Il me semble comprendre qu'il y a un terrain commun pour ce que dit Mattis et ce que j'ai expérimenté … C'est probablement une zone intermédiaire/un no man's land entre les destinataires à qui des choses doivent être transmises et la source (parfois nous même )de ce qui doit être transmis … Ne sachant pas pour l'instant comment exprimer ceci d'une meilleure manière j'ai présenté une proposition sur Passerelle de Translation
[it] Le sfide della traduzione
Riguardando i commenti introduttivi di mattis a questa pagina (non si potrebbe mettere un link/collegamento a un commento specifico?) … e riguardando anche le mie personali esperienze in diversi ambienti di lavoro (basati - con i piedi - sulla tecnologia dell'informazione) … mi sembra di capire che le cose dette da Mattis e quelle mie esperienze hanno qualcosa in comune … probabilmente si tratta di una "zona intermedia/terra di nessuno" tra i destinatari di cose che si vorrebbero trasmettere e la loro fonte (che a volte si trova in noi stessi) … Visto che adesso non saprei come dire/esprimere meglio tutto questo … ho proposto di ampliare l'attività di scrivere appunti su TranslationChallenges e su TranslationGateway. --luigi

[en]A nice example of shared space to experiment stakes of multilingual editing on one hand and collaborative translation on the oher hand is the wiki Blogalization Nation.
[de]Ein hübsches Beispiel für gemeinsam zum Experimentieren genutzen Platz für multipelsprachiges Editieren einerseits und kolaboratives Übersetzen anderseits ist das wiki Blogalization Nation.
[fr]Le wiki Blogalization Nation est un bel exemple d'espace partagé pour expérimenter les enjeux de l'édition multilingue d'une part et de la traduction collaborative d'autre part.
[it]…
--sylvie

[en]We used … for text not yet translated. This is not good as … could be a comment, a contribution as well and it it alo used in normal text. We should have a tag for marking up "untranslated". I just changed it on MultilingualExperiment into .t. This is no good either as you do not see it very good when looking after what has not been translated yet. This will become an important thing later, maybe [ ut ] or [ tr ] without spaces or something. UNT would be readable quite good. Any ideas?
[fr]Nous avons employé "…" pour le texte pas encore traduit. Ce n'est pas bon … Car cela pourrait être un commentaire, une contribution car c'est aussi utilisé dans un texte normal. Nous devrions avoir une étiquette pour marquer "non encore traduit" ;. Je viens juste de le changer sur MultilingualExperiment en "t." mais ce n'est pas bon non plus (….) quand on regarde tout ce qui n'a pas été encore traduit. Cela va devnir quelque chose d'importante, peut-être [ ut ] ou [ TR ] sans espaces ou quelque chose comme ça. UNT serait tout à fait lisible. Des idées ?
[en] Why not *** ?
[fr] Pourquoi pas *** ?
[en]We shouldn't translate everything like crazy though it's lovely for me to see it done. Editing still get's megacomplicated on multilingual pages. Maybe better let the discussion flow, the working language for multilingual experiment is English I guess. I'd rather concentrate on the formatting and the translated (+ editable :)) tiles for the moment. A page should in every combination of language filters set show up likewise good. MultilingualExperiment does already pretty fine.
[fr] Nous ne devrions pas traduire tout comme des fous bien que se soit trés agréable pour moi que cela se fasse. L'édition reste toujours megacompliquée sur les pages multilingues. Il serait peut-être bien de laisser libre le flux de la discussion, la langue de travail pour Expérience Multilingue est je pense l'Anglais. Je préfèrerai me concentrer plutôt sur le formatage et la traduction des titres (+ edititables :)) pour le moment. Une page devrait pouvoir s'afficher correctement quelque soit la combinaison de filtres de langues choisie . Expérience Multilingue est déjà pas mal.

[en]*** looks good to me. But unfortunately it's already occupied, for example in: f***! or s***!. What about °°°? Or [°°°]? I've that feeling it will become a tag. Adding the langagecode [°°°fr] or [fr°°°] might help for tagging untranslated text in a languagespecific way. I very much hope on Alex to say what he thinks would be a clever way to do it.

Having been into making new wikis and noding wikis a lot for a while now the multilingual experiment moved a little out of my attention. Remembering it now it seems clear to me that it has to migrate and become a full wiki. The mu-ling-wiki, the multilingual-experiment-wiki. Noding it, setting it close to its neighbors will make trafic grow. So, in the sense of MotherWiki: "Mom. It's time to leave". Moving it out to odd-wiki wouldn't make much sense. The essential thing about it are the multilingual features, and enabling them on odd-wiki would confuse many other wikis on this hive. So we need a nice and stable server for mu-ling-wiki with an oddmuse on it that can be freely configurated without disturbing any other wikis. Any proposals? Contacts to people who might want to help? Thank you.

Seems like it can be migrated to where a temporary oddmsuse installation of s-23-wiki was before, all help is welcome.


HardAndSoftLanguage

Define external redirect: WikiGoesCompletelyKandinski WaysToReadDocuments MultilingueEsperimento MultilingualExperimentWiki ExperimentationMultilingue

Languages: