This page is about the RecentChanges readership. We would like to know who is reading what we write.

RecentChanges shows others what we write. WhoIsOnline shows us what other people are reading the pages on our site, but it doesn’t show us what specific pages they are reading.

This page is also about the RecentShortTermAttentionChanges (a recommendation page). How can we create a page with mixed recent changes of wikis recommended for the community to take a look at? How can we see which other wikis have community-wiki on their recommendation page? WhoIsWatchingUs


This page used to be the a TalkPage for an idea by MattisManzel called “The Eye of HAL” – a poetic metaphor for some technology that would be watching us and our readers all the time.

The onboard computer named HAL on the jupiter-shuttle in Stanley Kubrick’s 2001 - a space oddysey has an eye. To see things. Communities have an eye.

Communities on wiki use RecentNearChanges? and RecentFarChanges (now fast a s lightning :).

If the choice of wikis represented on these pages would be community driven, sensitively reacting, we had an eye of HAL.

Maybe this page is also another type of recent changes that reflects the REM of the community. Eye of HAL rapid eye movement, hehe.

I sail the wikilandic-ocean and I drop into wikis that I think are cool and the cw-community should know about without rightway being pestered with a page. The others sometimes find stuff too and sometmes think, ah not worth a page, drop it.

It would be nice to have a rss driven page that shows all the recent changes of lets say the five wikis that have been added to this page lately. When you add the rss feed of a new wiki the one having been added the longest ago is removed from the page. When you drop into a wiki that you think is cool and the cw-community should know about without rightway being pestered with a page you add it.

(moved in here from sigi) [en]There is a thriving possibity in RecentNearChanges? and RecentFarChanges: By the choice of wiki’s rss-feeds made on the page you can demonstrate the point of view a community has (surprising alignance with POV btw)
Let just assume the necessary community attitude would already exist. Then you can make an experiment. Let’s try to agree on the choice, let’s try to dynamically do it, let try to find an automatismn for it.

Das mit Google ist interessant. Ich sehe aber die erweiterten recent changes near und far ganz anders. Über sie besteht verlockende Möglichkeit. Über die Auswahl der wikis, deren rss-feed auf der Seite eingehängt ist, kann man die Sicht (eine überraschende Übereinstimmung POV) der community allgemein zugänglich und sichtbar zu machen. EyeOfHal?.
Nimm nur mal an, die Begeisterung und die Erkenntnis, wie wichtig es ist, nach den anderen Ausschau zu halten, wäre bereits vorhanden.
Letztlich ist’s die komplette Digitalisierung, hehe.
Nehmen wir weiter mal an, du hättest geschnackelt, dass hier nicht nur Community draufsteht, sondern auch drinne is’ (nicht im biblischen aber im applikablen Sinne, wo ausreicht, wo ausreichen muss). Dann könnt’ man nämlich ein lustig Experiment machen.
Wir tun es mit der Vorstellung, alle würden es tun auf allen wikis - Visionäre, die wir welche sind ;) Wir versuchen, uns über die wikis auf den recent near and far changes zu einigen. Dynamisch, wir versuchen einen Automatismus ein programm dafür zu finden.
[en] If now the (community-driven) wiki-node (the plus-pole) and the (community-driven) recent changes (minus-pole) where kitted into each other somehow … A wiki automatically sees when another wiki is moving it into its community POV - means adds its rss-feed on near recentchangs/eye of HAL)
We’d need a “community-wiki has just changed its point of view-rss-feed”.

Wenn nun der (community-gesteuerte) wiki-node (- Pol) und die (community-gesteuerten) recent near changes (+ Pol) verknüft würden… Ein wiki erfährt automatisch davon, dass ein anderes es in seinen community Blickpunt rückt (dh. das rss-feed wird auf der recent near changes Seite hinzugefügt).
Ein feed müsste her: community-wiki hat soeben folgendermaßen seinen Blickpunkt verrückt:
Man kann sich das dufte ausmalen mit Schiebereglern und so, aber um anzufangen können wir das mit dem Smiley abstufungs system machen, wo wars noch gleich?

[en] got this feeling:
A polling system
A community driven wiki-node. Vote by polling.
A community driven eye of Hal. Chronoigial vote, new kicks out old.
An outgoing feed of our temporary condition. Reporting on: which wikis are on our wiki-node (the actual links to their wiki-nodes) and which wikis are on our eye of hal (rss feeds).
A mecanism that puts a link on WhoIsWarchingUs? here when a wiki adds us on its eye of HAL saying xyz-wiki is watching us.

Ich hab’ so’n Gefühl.:
Ein Abstimmungssystem für die Bewertung.
Einen community gesteuerten wiki-node gesteuert über zustimmungs-wertung<br Ein community-gesteuertes [EyeOfHal? eye of HAL] gesteuert über impuls-wertung. Ein rausgehendes feed der aktuellen wiki-Befindlichkeit, dh. welche wikis sind auf unserem wiki-node (als link zu deren wiki-node) und welche sind auf unserem eye of HAL (als rss-feed). Einen Mechanismus bei dem wenn ein wiki ein anderes auf sein eye of HAL nimmt bei dem beobachteten auf einer Seite WhoIsWatchingUs erscheint: xyz-wiki (als link natürlich) schaut gerad auf uns.

[en]the effect would be: Interested you would check out who is watching you. The ones the community thinks are cool end upon the wiki-node. A nervously watching and sending pole and a ballanced calm pole.

Folge wäre: interessiert prüft man nach, wer da schaut. Gute wikis landen auf dem wiki-node. Einen nervösen, schauenden und sendene Pol und einen ballancierten ruhigen Pol. Naja, kommt noch. Lass uns mal in die Richtung weiterknöken.

Make two community views, a stable recent near changes and EyeOfHal? where you see what members of the community thought would be worth to be watched for a while here. Zhe first is triggered by the votes for wikis on the wiki node, eye of hal instead are the feeds of the last entered pages. When a wiki is taken on the eye of hal of another wiki it can see that on its page WhoIsWatchingUs. Roughly.

Helmut: Mattis, grundsätzlich ein erstklassiges Konzept. Schlimm ist der Name.
k idea, awful page-name

Copied the relevant stuff in here, Alex thanks, Hellmut, yes, the name. I gave myself a little punch it to it, but then named it eye of Hal. I sometimes do such. Thinking it over later it seemed a good choice. It will be renamed to something soon but for now it’s just too geeky to do it, innit? with the pic it simply rocks. Let’s keep it for a wwek or two ;) - joking, sure.

The movie: How simple and genious to show the stunning intelligence of the computer just with light and voice - two things, filmmaking craftsmanship. No blinking sreens and flashing switches. Maybe the idea and the solution turns out to be similar simple and the fist name for this page therefor is temporarily tolerable.

Ah so – das erinnert mich sofort an die automatische Rückverlinkung, die wir auf diesem Wiki haben… So in etwa wie hier: Self:action=refer. Damit wissen wir noch nicht, wer unsere RecentChanges anschaut – aber wir wissen, wer den Links folgt! Wer also nicht nur liest sondern auch folgt, dh. nicht nur abnickt, sondern sich wirklich interessiert. Das ist doch die Info, die wir brauchen. So spühren wir den fremden Blick auf unserer Haut… Nun braucht es nur ab und zu einen Blick darauf, damit wir erkennen können, wo im Internet sich so mancher für uns interessiert. Das untersuchen wir dann, und machen eine Rückverlinkung vom RSS auf RecentFarChanges.

Bingo! Den fremden Bick auf unserer Haut spüren - bzz
Bingo! Feeling the stranger gaze on our skin. - bzz

MattisManzel 2005-07-16 12:22 UTC: I started up on EyeOfHal? and the corresponding WhoIsWatchingUs. The idea is finding a balance - both within a single wiki and within vast wikilandia. How many interesting discoveries on our trips over the wikis do we make? I myself would say 0 - 3, even maybe even 4 discoveries per week. Supposing some others will take part on this experiment you could say a new wiki-entry on the eye of HAL remains on it for a few days. During this time the watched wiki should receive the information that community-wiki is watching it. A link to community-wiki, maybe better a link to community-wiki: eye of HAL (similar to the wiki-node always linking to a wiki’s wiki-node instead of its home-page) should come up there. The reverse case: a link to the eye of HAL of a wiki starting to watch us should come up on our who is watching us and stay there until the watching wiki had enough new-entries to through comunity-wiki off their eye of HAL-list (K, we have to find a better name for the page, proposals?). New problem eye of HAL-spam. wikis trying to drag attention on them by posting their rss-feed on wiki’s eyes of HAL. Might be annoying. Alex’s aspect of we can only see who watches us if people follow links on community-wiki enters here. That might solve the potential spam issue as who spams will not be looked at in depth. We need some wikis to join in this experiment. I have to translate, pueh. Starting things in German is a drag.

After the strange SomeWikiPage? spam I thought tell chonqed-wiki about it (wher I hadn’t been for months). Surprise, they have a bot und the community seems to do fine. A good start for the eye of HAL, but I do not find their rss-feed to add it. chonqed-wiki probably would join an experiment. To see a first sign if it works one should best have a dozen participating wikis or even more.

Which are the technical limmitatioms right now’ Are there certain combinatons of engines where the automatic information exchange will not work?

Else we should make a list of wikis to be contacted soon. I could imagine as a participant:

  • chonqed-wiki (contacted by mattis), answer still open.
  • s23-wiki
  • Gründer-wiki
  • Meatball-wiki
  • crao-wiki


You need several features:

  1. Wiki must have an RSS feed
  2. Maybe the wiki must know how to aggregate RSS feeds (could be a different website that is linked from the wiki itself, no?)
  3. Wiki must allow you to see who is reading what (trackback, pingback, referrer tracking)

Maybe Alex, you could just put one two examples of rc-feeds on the [EyeOfHal? eye of HAL]. I don’t know the techs, it would be hours of trial and error. Just something, rc`s of any wiki where it lkely would work with. Open our eye of Hal, please. Someone?

I don’t like it. What about privacy? Plus: If people don’t edit pages on this wiki, we don’t know their usernames. Try it: Self:action=bigbrother.

Oh, whaoo, didn’t know (or remember?) this one. Seems like earlier than I hoped the moment of thinking about WhatAboutPrivacy? has come. I’m exited.

Well, I had started to work on this a few days ago, so it was nearly done. It’s a new feature, though. What we had before was Self:action=visitors, which nobody ever talked about, so I just assumed it was useless. I certainly never look at it.

One more feature we could add is to export the list as RSS feed. But before I do that, I want to 1. see whether anybody likes the idea, and 2. somebody must convince me that this is not an inappropriate invasion of privacy.

As I said, I don’t like it. I’m just going along with Mattis for little while to see where it is going, as an experiment.

What Are We Showing Exactly

  • It looks like what appears to be the reasoning behind this page is in German.
  • It seems like this is a community issue.
  • I absolutely despise the name Eye of Hal. I cannot imagine a future where every wiki talks about it’s “Eye of Hal,” nor do I want to. (No offence intended, Mattis.)
  • Historical alternatives: UnifiedRecentChanges, SharedAwarenessSystem (itself a pretty gross name.)

It seems to me: We will probably benefit by having a particular WikiWord for a core UnifiedRecentChanges page (in our case, the RecentChanges page) that is communally moderated, and extends further than just our own activities. But, I have some doubt.

Translated summarrizuing -sorry for the inconvenennce.

Ah! Thank you so much, Mattis. :)

It seems like a limitation to me, to tie the community’s SharedAwarenessSystem to the WikiNode. I can conceive of wiki choosing to do so, but I don’t think that, in the vast majority of cases, they would want to.

More likely, if anything, you’d want an awareness of their BlogControlledByWiki, since their blog is explicitely made for outsiders. (You don’t have to observe their daily minutie.)

I think extending a SharedAwarenessSystem to spoke wiki, though, is a good idea. The spoke wiki are something that the hub wiki has declared that it will collectively maintained with others, and it has put it’s own work into the spoke wiki. This is something where I think one wiki would put another wiki’s changes into it’s own main RecentChanges.

In our case, I think we would experiment with WikiFeatures.

I think two weeks are up. Unless people object, I’m going to transfer all of this to a page called “CommunityControlOfRecentChanges?,” or “ExtendedRecentChanges,” or something like that.

That would be a misunderstanding, I think. I asked Mattis before and he was pretty clear on it (as clear as it gets, haha): This is not about “who is editing what” (that would be RecentChanges), it’s a bout “who is reading what”. So really, it’s one of the many tools a SharedAwarenessSystem is built upon. Instead of being decentralized (client based) it is controlled by the wiki.

Ah, right: My understanding is that we’re talking about community control of RecentChanges- the Community reading choices.

He’s saying that communal reading should be based on the contents of the WikiNode- who are you connected with? Whoever you’re connected with, it would show up on the communal reading list.

I’m saying: “I think it’d be better for the community to read the wiki that we have a stake in- the wiki that the community writes to.” That’s the spokes, by definition. The definition of the spokes, if I understand right, is that they’re places that the hub intends to develop and oversee, possibly along with other hubs/cliques/ommunities. “The hub has a stake in the spoke.”

I’m saying collective readership should be based on stake, rather than topical adjacency.

However, it would be good in most cases to have some awareness of what neighboring groups are doing; It just needs to be awareness of intentional messages for other people. That is, awareness of the neighboring BlogControlledByWiki.

I would not want to see the regular RecentChanges of neighboring wiki mixed in with my own wiki’s RecentChanges. I would like to see their intentional messages for the outside world mixed in.


Thank you very much. ;)

I will choose the name IdeaNumber?001 if we do not pick a name by tomorrow.

I just want to say why I don’t want to speak the name of this page: If we get used to it, we’ll keep doing using it. And nobody will know what we’re talking about, and nobody will want to know what we’re talking about. We will isolate ourselves. We will not be following a policy of PlainTalk.

This is a very important idea, I believe. I’ve been thinking about it independently, for a few months. (I have a queue of 2,000,000 to write about.) This is an important one, though, and I’m super-glad MattisManzel has brought it up.

I just want to talk about it in the right frame, before we get too far to change.

I agree with your point about the name and since Mattis didn’t step forward, I did it.

I’m still not sure we understand each other.

This is not about RecentChanges. It’s something different: A list of people and the pages they read on this wiki.

The list of people is defined vaguely as “members of neighbouring wikis”. Those could be spoke wikis, of course. But we’re not merging feeds. That’s just the group of people we care about.

One of the metaphors used was “we feel their gaze on our skin.” We want to know what they are looking at.

But maybe I misunderstood and the idea is far more trivial than that. Perhaps all we want to know is which other wiki nodes are linking to our wiki node? That would be boring.

Oh; I thought- I think we’re both expressing parts of it.

Here’s my understanding of MattisManzel’s ideas are this:

I have reworked these ideas a little bit:

  • We should have some awareness of who’s pulling our RecentChanges page.
  • We should work in the RecentChanges of wiki that are our spokes, by HubAndSpokesWiki?.

The ideas I like are similar to Mattis’s, but different.

I would add:

  • When we get MachineCodeBlocks, and install them on the WikiNode pages of ourselves and our neighbors, it will be possible to make a general browser that let’s you look at RecentChanges, from the vantage of any wiki with a WikiNode (and MCB’s to back it,) like MattisManzel wants. (Or rather, how I think he wants.)

Actually, more generally:

  • I’d like to know when anybody’s been reading some of our pages.

Not just RecentChanges.

If a page is viewed by anyone, (we can preserve their anonyminity,) it would be nice for a “trace” to be left on that page for, say, 3-12 hours. The more people trample on the page, the heavier the “trace.” Perhaps it fades with time, rather than completely disappearing.

What’d be even cooler, is if you could have a sort of EverythingTwo type situation- where, when someone goes from point A to point B, it leaves a trace from A to B. That way, you can see what are the more popular paths out of the page, and get a feel for what links are being followed. If you were really into it, you could even make it so that the individual link that was chosen on the page could be tracked. You could do that by attaching numbers to the links.

But now I’m just completely in another dimension.

But I do think we should have some awareness of what people are reading.

And it’d be nice if we could self-identify (with our cookies, or whatever,) so we know it’s not just us ourselves walking around the wiki.

Morning. Nice to see this evolve. I have not quiete understood above but I see that I didn’t make myself very clear, pretty likely as I haven’t been clear about it yet, nor am I clear about it now, some days after. I like very much to commonly develop ideas here. Excuse me thus when - before even understanding your recactions - I try to make clearer what I originally had in mind.

POV. Simple example. You drive down a road in a city. Your point of view is directed to where you are heading. But as a nervous oscillation added on this relatively constant and calm point of viev there is permanent nervous eye-movement and highly frequent changining attention. Childrem, attention, watch out for the bicyclist, this person is about to open the car-door, give space, In compicated situations it may be three decisions in a second. Having a history of both parameters: the calm general pov (drive to point x) and the fast temporary pov where on second n to n + 1 your mind was in high attention to an idiot on a bike that obviously does not see you coming leading you to the instant decision to brake forcefully. Three seconds later the incident is forgotten and something else is really important. Having a history of both of these pov’s enables you to describe the position of an object on a journey. You see what I mean: Up I lauged about Eye of HAL Rapid Eye Movement. The metaphores are all wrong and rusty, sorry.
Two different ways. Kinda voting for the wiki-node. For this other page (ex eye of ..), or this NoseOfTheBoat?, this RecentRapidAttentionChanges?, rrac`s :) you do not vote but every newentry kicks out the oldest entry automatically.

It was all a bit much on a time, That’s how ideas go sometime. It takes imagination: All wiki provide a feed of both: their recent changes and their RecentRapidAttentionChanges?. On WhoIsWatchingUs watching wikis are automatically linked. K, enough. I’ll make another coffee and read.

Um… I think you have to try again. I still don’t understand what those rapid attention changes are supposed to be.

RecentRapidAttentionChanges? - A page of mixed rechent changes of several wikis (3-5 maybe, requires experimenting). When a new-feed is added the oldest is removed. You add a new feed on this page when you drop into a wiki that you think might be interesting to know about for community-wiki. You add a feed when you drop into a wiki community-wiki knows about but hasn’t looked at for a while + this wiki has interesting activities going on. Imagine a speed of newentries that makes a wiki stay on the page for one to three days. During that time you see wikis watching you (synonmym: putting their rapid attention on your community linked to) on the WhoIsWatchingUs. It’d open channel for a temporary attention of a community-member (or even everybody!) to start a chain reaction leading into inter community communication. Person A surfs wikilandia and dpops into x-wiki that he finds is interesting for his y-wiki-communitiy. He puts x-wiki’s feed on y-wiki’s RecentRapidAttentionChanges?. Person B takes a look on x-wiki’s WhoIsWatchingUs and sees y-wiki and decides to take a look at it … Anyhow. So far original idea.

There are other ideas here. I like the one of people watching us leaving an attention trace. Pure StigMergy. something that evaporates just like the pherones do.

Lion is surely right that a sumarized report forumulated to outwards the community as the blog is thought to be would be more precise on the community than looking at their confusing recent changes mixed with other wikis’ confusing recent changes. But the bot is too slow, it’s another good and informative community interaction level and later might turn out to be the more effective one. But you need something faster to start it, I think. The RecentShortTermAttentionChanges (maybe better?) are much more jazz. Rough and dirty somehow, But there is the chance to dicover something real hot on them. The bot takes two days.

MattisManzel 2005-07-23 07:10 UTC: Maybe: The page I called RecentShortTermAttentionChanges I figured out, is a recommendation page. community members as well as peole from outsides can recommend a wiki for us on it. No permanent text will be created to do so. All that happens is that the wiki’s recent changes - mixed in with others - will be visible for some time on our RecommendedRecentChanges? - is that a better name? The recommendation - if it does not have any other consequences - leaves almost no trace on the wiki.

The other end is WhichOtherWikisAreWeCurrentlyRecommendedTo?, isn’t it?

What I have in mind is creating an instant impulse for wikis to recognize each other.

Hmm, In order to know what is possible I’d need some more info on RecentChangesRss

Instant impulse: I surf wikilanda, drop into a x-wiki I don’t know and I think, this could be really interesting for y-wiki. I add x-wiki’s feed on y-wiki’s RecommendedRecentChanges? with one click (at least it should be one, k also two) and automatically y-wiki comes up on x-wiki’s WhichOtherWikisAreWeCurrentlyRecommendedTo? giving both two communities an instant impulse to communicate. This possibly leaves no other trace than a change in the history of y-wiki’s RecommendedRecentChanges? but also might lead into massive collaboration or even fusion of communities. It is not vulnerable to spam, not really ;)

While ago. This idea was about a reflective situation, community A watches community B. Community B automatically is notified about the fact that it is being watched by community A. This creates a precious communicative impulse towards each other. How to do it that - if wiki B moves on wiki A’s near recent changes by the ranking on their favorite neighbors - wiki B gets automatically notified? A feeling tells me quite decisively that we will need the feed of the wiki-node and - even more important - the feed of the recent near changes to do that.

I made wiki-net.

  • What was called recent near changes is now called wiki-net changes
  • What was called favorite neighbors is now called wiki-net
  • wiki-net blogs merges a wiki’s own blog - called blog-pages (which is attached at its homepage/blog) - with the blogs of the wikis selected on its page wiki-net

And now I’m gonna reread this page. :)

recent short term attention changes - brrrrr! This could be hot wiki-net changes in the contrary to the classical more stable choice best wiki-net changes. meatball would be on our best wiki-net changes page and remain there. A freaky wiki that someone discovers would go to hot wiki-net changes and stay there for some days or weeks til it drops out again.

on wiki-net: 2006-06-01 talk is something on how to make other wikis within in a “zone” know a wiki is watching them.


Define external redirect: CommunityControlOfRecentChanges HubAndSpokesWiki WhichOtherWikisAreWeCurrentlyRecommendedTo EyeOfHal WhatAboutPrivacy IdeaNumber RecommendedRecentChanges SomeWikiPage NoseOfTheBoat WhoIsWarchingUs RecentRapidAttentionChanges RecentNearChanges

EditNearLinks: EverythingTwo WhoIsOnline ExtendedRecentChanges TalkPage WikiWord