SigiV

sylvie : What I mean that 's we have more chance to let appear what we try to explain if we work about the "flow" and it's specificities, and if we try to know how to use them… let's dream again :)

mattis : Der Terminus kaufen, ein wiki kaufen, ist komplett kontraindiziert. Er vewirrt viele und außerordentlich. Es ist doch eher ein Schritt vergleichbar mit open sourcing, Besitzrechte wandern nicht, wie beim kaufen, sie vervielfältigen sich, so wie bei jedem, der ein free & open sofware Programm benutzt. Man sollte versuchen, das, was die free softwareler gebacken haben, auf sozialer und rechtlicher Ebene irgendwie nachzustricken.

sigi : heh mattis, can you translate this? we are now zu dritt (à trois) .

mattis: the term to buy, buy a wiki is comlpetely contraindicated. It confuses many and extraordinarily. Isn't it rather a step similar to open sourcing something? User-right (to use is to own) do not pass from one to another, like when buying somethning, they multiply like n everybody who uses (owns) anfree & open program. One should try to transfer that what the free&open sourcers boke to a social and juristic level somehow.

sigi: very nice (and new) idea, i think : open right! (like open source) . in our case we perhaps can say: open sites! (i thought wiki was, but it seems not to be) .
if sylvie agrees, we can try to connect that with virtual·money . (here or there or on a propper site) .
my new favorite vocabulary: open right, open money, open government .

sylvie: I agree to try to connect
- how free&open sources can help for an approach of a social and juristic context
with
- virtual·money

this connection makes me think about other connections :

- As NicolasMontessuit said on the VirtualMoney page " : "Information is not as egalitarian as matter" & "what you call "virtual money", (if only it exists), is much more something X that fills the analogy : X is to knowledge what money is to merchandise."
with
- these sentences of Sigi on the DiscussionMultilingue page : "wiki·money: it's the interface between wiki and real life . till now there is no interface ."

sigi : hu! nico is an extremely original thinker and not to understand in a minute . but he makes me think the following:
(merchandise = (A - X - B)) and (money = X) .
then i can fill the analogy with:
(knowledge = (A - X - B)) and (language = X) .
[i know, sylvie is thinking about angle ;)]
for an approach of a social and juristic context i think:
we (as a virtual community) are A and all the real·life-communities are B .

 We belong to A and B no ?
 
 we belong to B too, but differ in what 'we' want (merchandise) 
 and what 'they' want (money, money, money..) .
 (makes me thinking a little about the controlling of fire
 (a picture, mattis likes to use))
 perhaps that's a meta·plane .
 "We" and "They"  are  the same, but not at the same time 
 ( sometimes you drive a car - then you are a motorist .
 sometimes you ride a cycle - then you are a cyclist .)
 if we need real money - we are they .
 if they need virtual money - they are we .

then X is not only the virtual money (i wasn't quite exact with "interface" above) but also the real money . so perhaps we can write:
A - (virtual money <=> real money) - B .
so we need an example for (virtual money <=> real money) .
as with alex there is no merchandise (btw: i only write here on this (home)page and on pages we create from here . the rest of alex's wiki is dead for me), we can make our own example with you and me as A and B . i would spend some real money for that and then we can look how to transform it into virtual money (and vice versa) .

                           
                                          |
                                          |
                           -IRL-------Interface--------OL-
                            |             |             |
                            |        Relationnal        |
                            |           object          |             
                            |             |             |
B = people------------------X---Link (money/language)---X'------------------A = people
                            |      Transformation       |
                            |         Exchange          |                   
                            |             |             |
                           -|-------------|-------------|-
                                          |

good picture . makes me thinking about a screen, whitch is also a very good example of an interface .
relational object seems important . makes me thinking about xtof, who is translating all this stuff here into french .
perhaps we can take him as the first person worth our money?

yes what a lot of translations, but from my point of view I don't see real relationnal objects so I prefer play my joker do what you want, it's your money :)

if that means, you trust me, it's the best answer i can get :) .
but that's not the end of the business, it's the beginning .
if mattis has no other idea and xtof tells us his account·number, i'll send him 100 euro (i think, we can start with that) . if he says: "not for that" or if he hasn't a strong need for it, he can spend it for another good purpose .
the important thing is: each use of money, we agree to, is honoured as virtual money . so if xtof tells us, he received the money , this will be honoured to me as 200 S·terra and if he send the money to sylvie, we will certainly honour this with 200 S·terra for him. and if sylvie send the money to mattis, we will certainly honour this with 200 S·terra for her. and then further details will follow .
but what's with the cross-entry? well, we already have some virtual money, we can subtract from . so all that i said before, is meant for the sum of virtual money, which now is our own . but that's more than 30.000 R·terra . so we can create more than 60.000 S·terra .
btw: it's not the fault of xtof, that no real relationnal objects emerged till now .

Bonjour sigi. Not sure to understand. But I'm very honored ! Will take time to understand later. I just go back from my bank and have real money troubles… Not sure they could be able to understand S·terra. Let's say I live also IRL and have to pay off a debt of about 150 000 euros. That's the reason why I prefer to play on real money for the moment. Thanks a lot for your offer, but it's very risky for me to accept. All my money is swallowed by the real system. I have three children, want to nurture them and find out some real cash in order to rent a real flat. That's the reason why I prefer to play elsewhere and why I am strongly motivated to get down to business. FYI, I'm currently building another game which could be based on wiki… Perhaps CraoWiki:CommunityChest, I still don't know. So sigi, joker on this game. Could you please forward your relational object to sylvie. Have a nice week-end. I'll go back on BusinessCommeDab.

sigi : well, didn't know that . but if you need the money to buy food for your children, that's wonderful . in this case we may double the sum to 200 euro ;) . the only thing, we had to do, is to set you at the end of the chain (sigi → mattis → sylvie → xtof) . i hope, sylvie and mattis agree .

 je fais ce que je veux       language is our money
          |                             |
          |        meta·morphose        |
          |                             |
 je suis ce qui m'arrive  -----  money is our language  

sylvie : For my part the question it's not to be or not to be agree to choose who receive money but how the realmoney is transformed in virtualmoney and vice versa.
sigi has 100euros and he wants to give this 100euros to xtof
sigi asks to the others if they are agree with this choice
sylvie says to sigi that from her point of view she cannot be agree or not it's not her money
xtof says he doesn't see how he can transform realmoney in virtualmoney
My impression is the experience is in a good way because we can observe some problems :)
maybe we need a system where each one is able to give money for who he/she wants without asking agreement of the group, a system where it's easy to give and receive (like on a wiki) The agreement would be on the process level, to accept or not a system. This make me think to the Giftfile Project presented on CW by JohnBelmonte, it would be a solution…

sigi : you are right: the question is, how the realmoney is transformed in virtualmoney and vice versa.
and the answer may be surprising: we don't do that . perhaps e.bay does . john belmonte says, that he'll be able to exchange real money . but maybe you need a permission for that . it's slippery ground .
but john belmontes idea is a part of our idea . he says: "when a publisher gets this kind of support (some money), he can chose to either take the money or pass it on towards some work that he appreciates ." let's carry over this to our example : our wiki·tree in form of a special team (we) is the publisher of virtual money . some person will support us and gives us some money . we pass the real money on towards some work we appreciate and recompense this person by giving it an acount in virtual money . now, what can he/she do with that account? if the account is in R·terra, he/she can split it into S·terra by doubling the sum and pass it on towards some person for a work that he/she appreciates or he/she can sell it by e.bay . or he/she can give it back to us and, because with the S·terra we can recompense two other supporters of our virtual money, we give her/him double the sum of her/his support (in this case, her/his support is the work, we appreciate) .

  I don't understand where it's the "work",what do we call  "work" ?
  I don't understand how to use virtualmoney, what does it represent ?
 our work is to dream about a better world .
 so some of us are publishing a better money (virtual money (vm), wiki·money, e·terra - whatever) .
 it reflects the value of all we can buy as A (one e·terra (DiscussionMultilingue)) .
 we can use it if everyone has a virtual account . so we can passe it on from account to account as a real and better money .
 the question is, how to transform the bad money into the good money .

Ok for dream :) but I have some doubts about bad and good money … If I have money to buy what I need it's good ; but the money it's not good or bad.

if you need money to buy something, you have to pay a tribute (interest) to the bank which created that money . so the rich become more rich and the poor become more poor :( . so, at least the tribute is bad .

Yes it's the rule …

 if i support the vm-team with 100euro, they give me an acoout of 100 R·terra .
 i can split it to 200 S·terra .
 the team has to decide, what to do with the 100euro .
 (.. and with the 200 S·terra, because i give them back to the team :) ) 
 so, if you are a member of the team ...

maybe we drink your 100euros ! la fête c'est important dans une équipe :) so realmoney can help to buy real alcohol and alcohol become the way to transform a real flow in a virtual one…I know what to do with real money but with S·terra ? maybe the 200 S·terra represent the common memory of the fiesta …:)

you can't buy a drink with S·terra . so what? in the future we'll buy .
perhaps i can buy a translation here . i would prefer to write in german . but it's hard to find a good translator . so , if i had S·terra, i can offer 1 S for a good translation of a paragraph of mine .

the agreement would be on the process level, to accept that system.
ps: if j.b. would take the risk, that would even be better than e.bay and we can publish our creation as a gift·file.


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