“ Je fais ce que je veux, c’est-à-dire rien.
Je suis ce qui m’arrive, c’est-à-dire tout. “
it took some time till the evolution of the net afforded a solution of my problems, but now google did with knol . you are invited to click around : http://knol.google.com/k/kalle-schwarz/kalle-schwarz/1m7f8ad2dgh39/0# – sigi
this is a flash demo of gpl tree painting program kdissert (like angle) .
Hello sigi, kdissert seems very nice to create networks of concepts but I don’t see anywhere how to use it in a collaborative way through internet just using anykind of browser, that it’s for me one of most important aspect of what I ‘m interested to use a tool because I’m just a basic user … so if it’s posssible to use kdissert online through anykind of browser I would be very interested to discover it --sylvie
excuse me for having not seen your answer . things are developing in circles . let’s hope, that there is some new circulation in wikilandia . and yes, we need new browsers --sigi
sigi : hi sylvie, already seen? our tree has a gap (TreeGap?), caused by deficiency of the past center . therefore mattis and i gladly would use the opportunity to make a connection to you. that would mean a new picture for our community (WikiFolks) . est-ce que cela vous convient ? – babelfisch äh, sigi .
sylvie : Hello sigi, I’m not sure how to answer because I don’t know what are the parameters which are used to make this (WikiFolks)representation. Link people is one thing but how they are linked is an other thing and maybe it’s what it would be usefull to let appear. I mean to let appear which “objects” link each people and not just links between people… so if I try to understand how I can be a connection between ChristopheDucamp, MattisManzel and you (sigi) I have to find shared objects. For example it would be something like that :
and with you(Sigi) :
What do you think about ? --babelfisch auch
Good Sylvie. Common objects, topics. It should not be one tree, it should be multiple trees growing on pages parallel to topic-nodes maybe.
sylvie : hello Mattis, In my mind a Node exist because of attractions and interactions between objects and people, the node is not a stable graph to represent forms of relations because these relations are unstable.To translate this permanent re-configuration or re-contextualization we need a dynamic form for the visualization of nodes, so I’m agree it should not be one tree --sylvie
well, those are interesting topics, tell us more about the machine relationnelle and the necker·cube . i’m also interested in multilingual·experiment and collaborative·translation . my special interest is to develop an open wiki, which belongs our community .
yes you are “also interested in multilingual·experiment and collaborative·translation” , ok the problem is that each one have his/her own perception about how people are linked so it’s why I just can talk about my impression and via feedback you can give your own vision so the question would be how can we transform these exchanges of points of view through a visual information like a tree or any kind of form made of nodes ? For example what kind of informations we need to help collaborative work about MultilingualExperiment and collaborative·translation ?
discussions tools translation | | | MultilingualExperiment | | common | | | | L | | | | | | | [da] [de] [en] [eo] a [es] [fr] [he] [is] [it] [ko] [sv] | | | | n | | | | | | | / \ / \ / \ / \ g / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \ / \ / \ / \ / a \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / | | | | g | | | | | | | | | | | e | | | | | | | | | | | s | | | | | | | ___|_______|_______|_______|____|___|______|_______|_____|_______|______|_______|_____ | | _|_______|_______________________|_ | | | mother | | | | | L | | | | | | | [da] [de] [en] [eo] a [es] [fr] [he] [is] [it] [ko] [sv] | | | | n | | | | | | | / \ / \ / \ / \ g / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \ / \ / \ / \ / a \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / | | | | g | | | | | | | | | | | e | | | | | | | | | | | s | | | | | | | ___|_______|_______|_______|____|___|______|_______|_____|_______|______|_______|_____ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | _|_____|_____|_ | | | | | MattisManzel - sigi | | _|_____|_____|_ | | SylvieBourguet - ChristopheDucamp
sigi : yes, as you can see in the graph our common language is englisch . i’m not so happy with that . what about a universal language (like your graph )?
discussions tools translation | | | universal language as common language _|____________________|__________|_ | | | mother | | | | | L | | | | | | | [da] [de] [en] [eo] a [es] [fr] [he] [is] [it] [ko] [sv] | | | | n | | | | | | | / \ / \ / \ / \ g / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \ / \ / \ / \ / a \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / | | | | g | | | | | | | | | | | e | | | | | | | | | | | s | | | | | | | ___|_______|_______|_______|____|___|______|_______|_____|_______|______|_______|_____ | | | | | | | | _|_____|_____|_ | | | | | MattisManzel - sigi _|_____|_____|_ | | SylvieBourguet - ChristopheDucamp
sylvie : yes graph can help for a common language but we need words,so language like english for example , for associations with signs … We are always in something arbitrary so to create this common language it needs to work on the agreement (as LuigiBertuzzi propose in his web user approach) of each contributors of this common language, it means also this language have to be understand by new contributors so the agreement would produce a way to develop the language and at the same time the way to learn this language.
sigi : you are right: that’s the problem . i googled around . luigi·bertuzzi → poietic·generator → pg·wiki → raiph·mellor → what·is·stigmercy → http://www.stigmergicsystems.com/primer.html? is that a topic of common interest?
sigi : how people are linked? as you can see in the tree, christophe, mattis and sigi(me) are very interested in the wiki·community . so you can see us as a group with you in the center . why you? parce que tu peux communiquer bien!
sylvie : It seems we can see the same elements but their organisations are different. Your organization is centered around people, for me the focus point are objects which people evolving around but it’s not very clear on my graph
sigi : perhaps necker·cube could help? and what’s about my note at the top of this page?
aber ja, i think, persons come first . the main thought to bear in mind is that new strategies are used to create a system of human collaboration . the information and its organization emerge later - as a consequence of the system being put into operation . yes, we need all these things around us to manage our life . but to discuss them, they must be common and not privat . well, one thing, the wiki·tree stands for, is: things, we discuss, we discuss as a community and not as private persons . perhaps luigi can participate here with a direct tree·connection to you?
sylvie : yes necker·cube could help because what we exprim is just a different mind approach it would be interesting like for the necker·cube to allow apparition of each approach through a global form. To work on this kind of form we need to work together via online tools like we do on a wiki. About the idea of visual language I think it could help to have a graph to offer a plane vision of the different elements which compose a cluster. This graph need to offer hyperlinks to be used in the network logic. To make an example of what I mean I’ve made a map about the MultilingualExperiment cluster : http://www.x-arn.org/angle/03/?map=29 @sigi—> when you say “what’s about my note at the top of this page?” do mean about a new currency ?
sigi : last first: yes . wiki, in my vision, is arranged as wiki·folks | wiki·word | wiki·money
like machine relationelle is arranged as info·culture | info·structure | infra·structure
or necker·cube is arranged as people | location | objects .
one thing, i miss in the necker·cube : you can`t connect the connections?
sylvie : what do you mean by “you can`t connect the connections “ ?
sigi : you wrote: “this graph needs to offer hyperlinks to be used in the network logic” . that’s what i mean . if you see a connection between some wiki·words (pages) as a new wiki·word(page) then you have a connection of connections and can handle this in a new sense . i don’t see that in necker·cube . therefore if you write: we can develop and at the same time learn a new (universal) language (by using wiki), i agree .
sylvie : I begin to feel difficulties to find a way to exprim myself and in which sense understand your question … it’s hard for me … Do you mean you don’t see hyperlinks on the map about the MultilingualExperiment map : http://www.x-arn.org/angle/03/?map=29, normally, on the map, you can link wiki words to existent wiki pages or create a new wiki page….
sigi : i mean something like ((luigi — it) — mother·language)
sylvie : if you choose “ view node tools “ and select a node, it for example, you can link this node to another node, mother·language for example, …
can you see it ? http://www.x-arn.org/angle/03/?map=31
sigi : yes, i had to start with view map tools : http://www.x-arn.org/angle/03/?map=32&node=182
as to the example: yes, one gets (luigi — it — mother·language) . but for (mattis — it — other language) you need a new it.
in ((luigi — it) — mother·language) and ((mattis — it) — other language) you can need the same it.
necker·cube possibility: (luigi — * — it) (* — mother·language) and (mattis — * — it) (* — other language)
sylvie : you can do it by yourself Angle works like a wiki I mean there is an historic so each one can propose his/her own representation, it’s a collaborative tool but at this time it’s just a beta version …for example don’t be surprisedd when you decide to save a map and get the message “are you sure you want to delete this map ?” don’t hesited say yes it will save your map … it’s Software Art
sigi : done: http://www.x-arn.org/angle/03/?map=34 and gone
sylvie : yes sometimes there is problems with database request
sigi : new trial: http://www.x-arn.org/angle/03/?map=16
sylvie : It’s a good idea to add a “node” between nodes it’s more easy to link the different elements
sigi : you encourage me in telling you more about my thoughts of any kind of form made of nodes. a node represents a coherence, a connection, a context, a relationship, a continuity, an association of objects, subjects, ideas or (last not least) other nodes . it is the idea (notion, conception, term) of a new language . we use nodes here, each page is a node (thanks to it’s link) . but sentences or paragraps are no nodes, because they cannot be referred by links . (not yet)
you certainly know all this, as the experiments with necker·cube demonstrate . in the long run we need a programm, which automatical transforms text into nodes . i think the next step is to transform paragraphs into nodes and to connect them . there are at least two possibilities: sequential and parallel (example: your two questions) . in angle thats no problem . but angle is not a (wiki)browser . we must find a possibility to browse it .
sylvie : I like very much this idea of browser but I don’t know if what I understand it’s what you say …what you describe, make me think ,if we use the necker cube metaphore, that we don’t need to navigate from node to node but from nodes (informations) to forms made of nodes (exchanges/relations) and from forms made of nodes to nodes. A navigation wich allow a transition between micro to macro & macro to micro.We don’t only need to choose the focused angle but also we need to choose the focused plan (back or front).
^ | +......+ .|...... ..|...... ...|...... ....|...... ......|...... .......|...... .......+-----+--------------> ....../....... ...../....... ..../....... .../....... ../....... ./....... + /
subjects WikiWord ^ | |......+ old messages WikiName |...... |...... . . . . . . . .|...... . . . . . . . .|...... . . . . . . . .|...... S. . . . . . . |...... u. . . . . . .+-----+--------------> old messages WikiName b. . . . . ./.......new messages WikiName j. . . . ./....... e. . . ./....... c. . ./....... t. ./....... s./.......new messages WikiName WikiWord + /
sylvie : yes something like : [WikiDe:SylvieBourguet sylvie]
but maybe it would help to have author of the message + subject of the message
A wiki page is made of nodes :
each node (.) is a contribution
nodes form the whole content of the page [yes, that’s the revolution]
A page has different sections and sections needs to be interconnected :
- new contributions/front focused plan
- old contributions/back focused plan
- subjects of contribution : focused point
or we can mix : test & [WikiDe:SylvieBourguet sylvie] —> test2
sigi : we need a very big room for that .
but as you wrote: a page has different sections ..
each section can become a node (made of nodes).
as there is not enough place for all the nodes, we must fold some nodes (or scroll the screen).
test3 has 2 sections (messages archivés & nouveaux messages)
if you click on nouveaux messages and then on url: visit site, you come to test4 (how can one get the number of the map (i have guessed))
that’s a little circumstantial, but perhaps we can propose the programmers of angle to make a better solution
sylvie : Angle is an ARN project, at this time we are just two persons YannLeGuennec who programs and me but I’m not a programmer. If programmers are interested in this project they are welcome to make evolve this tool … Angle it’s under Free Art license …
sylvie : I will make a new message to explain what I think about : - new contributions/front focused plan
- old contributions/back focused plan
- subjects of contribution : focused point
and how it would work , we can dream … but I don’t know how to exprim it so later….
sigi : wouldn’t it be better to fold the old contributions into a node, so you dont need a background, but only the knot ? (if you touch it with the cursor, you unfold it (dream ))
sylvie : oh yes I like this idea … euh … just to verify if I understand
1- each node is a map ?
2- we need to be able to navigate through the different maps but inside the same room ?
sigi : in the long run i see a danger: if you totally delete a map, the history is also deleted . how can you restore it?
sylvie : yes it’s a bit wild … You just can “view” old version of historic not restore it It would be nice to imitate wiki process about deletion of page and restoration of old versions of the historic.
sigi : nodes as colored surfaces. very beautifully. but is that not also possible in angle?
sylvie : yes it’s possible to choose colors for nodes, colors of the palette depends on the uploaded background image. But Thread Map don’t have the problem of room dimensions you note above about Angle where maps are generated like a fixed size image so maybe it would interesting to think about this question. What I like in Thread Map that is offer a confortable way to read and it’s also nice to can modify the larger and the longer of the graph just by adding messages, and each contribution of a thread are always interconnected nodes. Angle is more chaotic and aleatory about interconnection nodes because nothing is automatic to connect them, it can be feel as laborious but as the same time it’s allow different representations of a map, different visual organizations of nodes and links. Angle was not thought to represent threads maps but to map what we want and also find what is possible to do with nodes and links. Angle is more a way to create questions about a tool uses than to offer a solution for a specific use. What I think that it would be interesting to create webgateway between this two kind of ways :
- a way to develop contexts to experiment anarchic uses of different elements and interactions between uses (user approach)
- a way to develop tools for a specific use, a use identified in an experimental context as an interesting approach which need a tool solution.(programmer approach)
Maybe it’s what we are doing ?
sigi : as you wrote above: each node is an information, or a form, made of nodes . a map is a form, made of nodes - so a map is a node . and yes, we need to be able to navigate through the different maps but inside the same room . that’s easily done, because the map·frame of the knots is always the same, i suggest . simpelst way to navigate is to klick on a node and then on a fold-button (perhaps several buttons). if the node is a folded map (perhaps shown by a special color), it is unfolded, and vice versa .
in thread map you can modify the width and height of the graph automatical, but the fields become smaller and smaller (until they look like an itzy bitsy teeny weeny dot bikini)
i quite agree with you on the use of angle . a specific use would be the automatical transformation of text into nodes, but that is realy non trivial . it’s indeed a business for years .
sylvie : what is wiki.money ? I think it could help me to read the VirtualMoney page…later
sigi : mattis and i are talking about that, but we don’t have yet concrete results . maybe you can help us . the idee is a money, which is not based on certificates of indebtedness, but on gifts (“to give something to somebody doesn’t produce an impoverishment of the giver” (does not produce a debt, but produces money)) .
Just saw ANGLE, it looks awesome, thanks!
Any chance that the code could be released under GPL?
sylvie : I’m happy you like it! About the license it’s under Free Art license it’s like GPL but for artwork , this license is directly inspired from GPL license. About the code of Angle we have to update the distribution … I will let a message on GraphEditingSoftware when it will be done.