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< [fr]En même temps, peut-être ai-je tort. Et peut-être que nous devrions placer tous ces trucs en plusieurs langues à l'intérieur d'un FaisceauDePage. Puis, je pourrais lire ce qui se passe dedans.


> [fr]En même temps, peut-être ai-je tort. Et peut-être que nous devrions placer tous ces trucs en plusieurs langues à l'intérieur d'une PageFaisceau. Puis, je pourrais lire ce qui se passe dedans.


This is the beginning of MultilingualExperimentDiscussion, now archived here.

[en]What do you think about this, Mattis? Would this limit the experiment too much? I'd like to test page clusters extensively. (See PageCluster.)
[it] Cosa ne pensi Mattis? Ti sembra che l'esperimento in questo modo sarebbe limitato? Mi piacerebbe fare una bella prova dei ragguppamenti di pagine (vedere PageCluster).
[fr]Que penses-tu de ça, Mattis ? Est ce cela limiterait trop l'expérience ? J'aimerais tester plus à fond les faisceaux de pages. (Voir PageFaisceau) – AlexSchroeder

[en]You know, I'm not really involved in the multi-lingual experiments, like Mattis is. However, I am affected by it, and I think it's good that I am. I'd rather not see it hidden into a PageCluster.
[it]Sapete cosa vi dico? Non sono per niente coinvolto in esperimenti multilingue, come Mattis. Però mi dicono lo stesso qualcosa, penso proprio che sia bello che me la dicano. Forse preferirei che non fosse una cosa nascosta in un raggruppamento di pagine.
[fr]Tu sais, je suis pas vraiment impliqué dans les expériences en plusieurs langues comme peut l'être Mattis. Cependant, Je suis touché et pense que c'est intéressant. J'aimerais plutôt ne pas les voir cachées dans une PageFaisceau.

[en]You could say that I don't have anything to contribute, because I only speak English. But, I think that's not quite right; Because the interaction between mono-lingual speakers and multi-lingual speakers is important. So, I am happy that there is multi-lingual work in public view here.
[it]Magari voi direte che io non ho niente da contribuire, perchè parlo solo Inglese. Ma non è mica vero; l'interazione tra chi parla una sola lingua e chi ne parla diverse è importante. Quindi mi piace un sacco quest'attività multilingue, che si vede qui.
[fr]Tu pourrais dire que je n'ai rien à raconter, parce que je parle seulement anglais. Mais pense que ce n'est pas tout à fait vrai ; parce que l'interaction entre des contributeurs en une seule langue et des contributeurs de différentes langues est importante. Ainsi je suis heureux qu'il y ait des vues publiques de travaux en plusieurs langues.

[en]At the same time, perhaps I am wrong. And perhaps, we really should put all the multi-lingual stuff into a PageCluster. And then, I should be reading what's going on in there.
[it]Magari poi mi sbaglio… e tutta le cose multilingue è giusto metterle in un raggruppamento di pagine (PageCluster). Quindi andrò a vederle per sapere cosa sta succedendo.
[fr]En même temps, peut-être ai-je tort. Et peut-être que nous devrions placer tous ces trucs en plusieurs langues à l'intérieur d'une PageFaisceau. Puis, je pourrais lire ce qui se passe dedans.

[en]But that's not how I, personally, want to go.
[it]Ma, personalmente, non è proprio in questa direzione che vorrei andare.
[fr]Mais ce n'est pas la façon dont je veux aller personnellement

[en]Well, it's here. We'll see how it goes. :)
[it]Ma va bene, visto che c'è stiamo a vedere dove va. :)
[fr]Bon c'est ici. Nous verrons comment ça fonctionne :)

[en]Yeah, I wanted to try it and see how it "looks". I'm not sure. What about a multilingual homepage? Clearly it doesn't belong into the MultilingualExperiment cluster. Does that indicate that the MultilingualExperiment cluster is not quite right, because it doesn't denote a topical interest? Maybe that's the reason you are right and MultilingualExperiment should not be in a cluster. We'll see what Mattis says, and if he doesn't like it, it should be trivial to undo.
[it]Giusto, la mia intenzione era provare e vedere che effetto fa. Non ho ancora un'idea precisa. Cosa ne dite di una "homepage" multilingue? Naturalmente non farebbe parte del raggruppamento MultilingualExperiment. Vorrebbe dire forse che un raggruppamento non va bene, perchè non rappresenta un interesse per un argomento? ….
[fr]Oui, je voulais essayer et voir ce que ça donne. Je ne suis pas sûr. Que penser d'une page d'accueil en plusieurs langues ? Clairement ça n'appartient pas à un faisceau MultilingualExperiment. Est ce que cela indique que le faisceau MultilingualExperiment n'est pas vraiment pertinent, parce qu'il ne dénote pas d'un intérêt thématique ? Peut-être est-ce la raison pour laquelle tu as raison et que le MultilingualExperiment ne devrait pas être dans un faisceau. Nous verrons ce que Mattis dit et s'il n'aime pas, il pourrait être trivial de le défaire.

[en]: Right now it's a topical interest. If it expands to something serious, we can rethink the clustering then.
[it]: In questo preciso momento raccoglie (e rappresenta) un interesse per un argomento. Se l'interesse si espande e prende una forma più concreta … forse potremo ripensare allora l'aspetto del raggruppamento.
[fr]: A cette heure c'est un thème d'intérêt. Si cela s'étend vers quelque chose de sérieux, nous pouvons repenser par la suite la mise en faisceau.

[en] A cluster could represent the issues related to a given topic … The Topic homepage could resemble the Main part of a Program code … each cluster page could resemble the Subroutine part of the Program code … Could this provide a clue for a better shaped something … ?
[it] Un raggruppamento di pagine potrebbe rappresentare le questioni sollevate da un determinato argomento … La "homepage" dell'argomento potrebbe essere paragonata alla parte "Main" del codice di un Programma … ogni pagina del raggruppamento potrebbe essere paragonata alle parti "Subroutine" del codice del Programma … Potrebbe essere un indizio di qualcosa di più definito … ?
[fr] Un faisceau pourrait représenter les conclusions en rapport avec un sujet donné. La page d'accueil des thèmes pourrait ressembler à la partie Principale d'un code de programme… chaque faisceau de page pourrait ressembler à la section de sousroutine du code programme… Est-ce que cela pourrait fournir une solution pour quelque chose de mieux formé… ?

[en]I can't tell, not yet, there is too much here I do not understand. I fly over the pages, but as it is online, you are alway mach 2 too fast. You see, ah, there's a river down there, a mountain, but you do not really understand. To get there for me the best way is to translate. Sit down, get the machine translation and edit it. That takes a hell of a lot of time. But then it is there, understood. Translating is like going by bicycle. Imagine an important, condensed content like WhatIsAWikiSoundbites and imagine we could agree on one best definition, "A wiki is: xxx". This would be a fine nice piece of content. And now imagine the same piece commonly elaborated content most finely translated and worked on in many languages. This takes a lot of work and discussion within languages. But you see the difference? The language is a code for the content, for "the haveing understood it". The same sentence in many languages is one thing, it is just more precise, more common, more true, it is better and superiour, than written in only one code (i.e. English). It's like the difference of having seen a landscape by riding through it on a bicycle to (flying over ?) being flown over it in a F-16.
[en]I do not understand PageCluster yet, not how it will feel like. It is some kind of exteriorisation, I understand why you guys are looking for something, to keep the recent changes a fire and prevent turning it into a fire storm when there should be more people and traffic goes. But I'm sceptic about the approach. It might be good for something and let's keep experimenting. I feel like the approach would rather be introducing an editable title (surely to be translated on multilingual pages and use the CamelCase title more as what it is, the skeleton, less visible, more what it is, a stiff carrying structure. Wiki as a beauty queen: the hips, the legs, the belly. Beauty. Content. There are stiff bones inside the beauty queen. There wouldn't be the queens beauty without these bones. But you don't think about them when looking at her. Or do you think about the paper quality when reading a book? Sorry for mytrge code (language). No clusters might be cooler (we could always turn cluster on when the recent changes turn into a fire-storm, but I'd agree as well on it. Try out, fall on the muzzle, learn.

[en]FAQ Do I not have anything to contribute on a multilingual page, because I only speak English? Absolutely no! You sure have to contribute, but only in English. You also can understand only contents in English or in Foreign languages that has already been translated to English. This causes translation work for bilingual contributors, but it should to a certain degree be possible to sustain that.


[en]Anybody tells me how this discussion should or could be relayed in all langages this page, like any other multilingual page, appears to be written in at the outset? We can maintain a multilingual topic's page all right. However, multilingual versions of text referenced/linked and of discussions which may take off from such a page, look to me like a monster organisational problem – Any clues?

[en]I agree with Luigi. I prefer one page per language. – AlexSchroeder

[en][Mattis], nothing is lost on a wiki… relax. I try to do some refactoring from CraoWiki's content. KeptPages has been put here… To respond to Lugi, how about testing the opportunity of a multilingual discussion via PermanentAnchor in each language ? Comme PourquoiSiPeuDeFemmesSurWiki (same page) ? – ChristopheDucamp

[en]To know if can work, it has to be tried out, right? Then you think what went wrong, change something, you try again, … good ol' empiristic school, ' know? In case we'd succeed to make it work it would enable the human species to an interesting new ability, which is to my feeling more likely to change the world for good than anything else: The ability to globally, commonly and simultaneously think about an issue in multiple langauges. I'd like colored backgrounds to seperate the different languages on multilingual pages like this here to increase readability. Alex sees no reason to make them available here and prefers different languages on different pages. I do not want to disturb ongoing discussions with a multilingual mess, but I'd like to try it out, maybe we can agree on certain pages to do it. Is someone else interested in such an experiment here? 031207 21:41

[en]See Alex, no boldness from my part, I understand that you and others might feel confused about this. You just seperated my bilingual contribution on WhatIsAWikiSoundbites into a German Version WasIstEinWikiInWenigenWorten and the English veron. Now the English do not get anymore when the German is changed. This page with expectably little and condensed text is predestinated for multilingual. I want to know what the chinese think a wiki is. The chinese want to know what we think a wiki is. We want to know who we are. And we can collectively find out 031207 22:09 – MattisManzel

[en]Should I make MultilingualExperiment?? Someone has a better title?

[en]At the moment I am comfortable in having some pages multilingual without having to define the set of multilingual pages. So by all means, let us continue as we did in the last few days. I was just posting my comment above to let Luigi know that I shared his concern. :) If you, Mattis, want to discuss this further, MultilingualExperiment? seems like a good page for discussing it. Maybe we could move some relevant comments from CommunityWikiMehrsprachigkeit there.

[en]Shouldn't either the cluster MultilingualExperiment be deleted or all new frech/english pages be integrated in there? It doesn't quite make sense with multilingual pages scattered all over, doesn't it? 031315:29

[en]Yes. The MultilingualExperiment cluster should be removed once we decide that the "experiment" is over and we should be using it all over the place. When do we decide? I don't know. Perhaps we should find more active contributors who decide for either one or the other.

Kiel esperantisto, mi neniam ghenighas per chi tiaj problemoj multlingvaj. B-)

[en]In all seriousness, has there been some discussion on presenting all N languages on the same page? I'm just a dumb American – we're continually astonished that anyone speaks non-English languages at all – but my guess is that few readers will understand fluently more than 2 or 3 of the languages.

[en]So, it seems like it's a bit crowded. What about using parallel pages instead? (Yes, I just made that term up). Like this:

[fr] Voici du texte en Français.

 ----[fr] AutresLangues?: HereIsSomeText? HierIsSchomeTexschte? HeresaSomeaTexta?

[en]It's kinda the way WikiPedia does it (except it's technically not all on one wiki). --EvanProdromou

[en]I've been promoting using several languages on the same wiki. Mattis wants to promote using several languages on the same page. This why we started this multilingual experiment. To see whether it would "work" somehow. For the record, I agree with you: Too crowded. Also for the record, Mattis would like some more technology to be able to enable or disable certain languages. He also feels that separating a page on a language basis will promote their growing out of sync. I maintain that this is fair enough, since there won't be that much overlap between the two (or N) language communities on a wiki. So basically it is all still undecided.

[en] This wiki should probably become a multilingual environment - or meeting place - before multilingual solutions for page maintenance can be implemented with no waste of time and energy
[it] Questo wiki dovrebbe probabilmente diventare un ambiente multilingue - o un luogo d'incontro multilingue - prima che si possano sviluppare soluzioni per gestire pagine senza sprechi di tempo ed energie.

[en] It has the potential to become "the one", yes, as multilingual features are far the best here. Thanks for the background colours. I'll experiment on soon. Merry xmas ev'body. 031225 17:23 MattisManzel

[en] Mixing [de] Sprachen [en] should work, now. I think that the number of colors will not scale for long… I moved the color definition from the config file to the CSS file, so that in the future, we may choose individual color-schemes via cookie.

Both I think is useful. Thanks.

[de]Nach Sätzen getrennt, ich experimentiere. Mit Filtern zum ausblenden der unerwünschten Sprachen leserlich. Volle Feautures für Sprachinteressierte/an multipelsprachlichem Sinn Interessierte. Gemeinsamer Sinn so nahe aneinander wie möglich. Dieser multipelsprachliche gemeinsame Sinn braucht unsere Aufmerksamkeit und Hege.

[en]Few or no women are busy on wiki recently (nov 03).
[de]Wenige oder keine Frauen sind zurzeit (Nov 03) auf Wiki zugange.
[fr]Peu ou pas de femmes croisées sur les wikis récemment (nov 03).
[it]Fino a poco fa (3 Novembre) di donne che usano pagine Wiki se ne sono viste poche o nessuna.

[en]I'd please like to encourage all women to experiment here, and - in case they like it - to contribute.
[de]Ich möchte bitte alle Frauen ermutigen, hier zu experimentieren und sich bei Gefallen einzubringen.
[fr]J'aimerais si cela est possible encourager toutes les femmes ici à essayer, et - au cas où elles aiment – à contribuer.
[it]Vorrei proprio che tutte provassero a usarle e, se le trovano di loro gradimento, a contribuire.

[en]We need you here!
[de]Wir brauchen Euch hier!
[fr]Nous avons besoin de Vous ici !
[it]C'è bisogno di voi da queste parti!

031226 22:32 CET

(move to WomenAndMenAndWiki ?)

[en] Incomplete and cryptic: We should lead the languages of this world parallel. Thus everybody understands at any time that it is our thought we work on. One content, but in multiple regional codes, that this content is described in. This includes the marvelous task to agree on a common statement above all regional, cultural, linguistic, religious inequalities. That hasn’t ever been done before.
[de] Unfertig und kryptisch: Es gilt, die Sprachen dieser Welt parallel zu führen. So versteht jeder zu jeder Zeit, dass es unser Gedanke ist, an dem wir arbeiten - ein Inhalt, jedoch multiple regionale Codes, in denen dieser Inhalt beschrieben wird, inklusive der wunderbaren Aufgabe, sich über alle regionalen kulturellen, sprachlichen, religiösen Ungleichheiten hinweg auf eine gemeinsame Aussage zu einigen. Das gab’s noch nie bislang.
[it] (Sembra) Incompleto e criptico: ma forse le lingue di questo mondo devono essere gestite in parallelo. Tutti così potrebbero capire che si sta lavorando su quello che si pensa - non sul contenuto - non importa quanti siano i codici regionali, o le lingue, in cu il nostro pensiero viene presentato. Ci si potrebbe quindi mettere d'accordo su un'affermazione condivisa, oltre ogni disuguaglianza religiosa, linguistica, culturale! Bellissimo obiettivo! Nessuno se lo è mai posto prima.

 [de] Die kleinste Einheit ist der Satz. Ja_. <br> 
 [en] The smallest unit is the sentence. Yes. <br> 
 [it] L'unità più piccola è la frase___. Si_. <br>

[en] Its end is marked by a fullstop. After the fullstop a new sentence begins. If the fullstop after the longest translation would mark the end of record for all translations, the new sentence would start together in all languages. This would mean some blank characters at the end of the sentences in languages, which get along with fewer space. Conceivable would also be a proportional setting of the letters between the common starting points – the fullstops. All fullstops (that mark the end of a sentence) stand above one another as a vertical dotted line. Between these fullstops the text pushes or stretches, depending on the space requirement of the respective language. Possibly however compensatory blanks at the end of record lead to better readability. ' has to be tried out. The vertical dotted line of fullstops is important. If you filter out the language, which requires most space, the text should automatically resort itself according to the language with the largest space requirement.
[de] Sein Ende wird durch einen Punkt markiert. Nach dem Punkt beginnt ein neuer Satz. Wenn der Punkt nach der längsten Übersetzung das Satzende für alle Übersetzungen markierte, würde der neue Satz in allen Sprachen gemeinsam beginnen. Dies würde bei den Sprachen, die mit weniger Stellen auskommen, einige Leerstellen am Ende des Satzes bedeuten. Denkbar wäre auch ein Proportionalsatz der Buchstaben jeweils zwischen den Satzanfängen. Alle Punkte (die ein Satzende markieren) stehen jeweils untereinander, dazwischen drängt oder streckt sich die Schrift, je nach dem Platzbedarf der jeweiligen Sprache. Möglicherweise aber führen ausgleichende Leerzeichen am Satzende zu einer besseren Leserlichkeit. Müsst’ man ausprobieren. Wichtig sind die untereinanderstehenden Punkte. Wenn man jene Sprache ausblendet, die die meisten Stellen beansprucht hat, sollte sich der Text nach der Sprache mit dem nun größten Platzbedarf neu sortieren.
[it] La fine dell'unità più piccola - la frase - è evidenziata da un punto. Dopo il punto inizia una nuova frase. Ogni nuova frase dovrebbe iniziare quindi in tutte le lingue. Bisogna fare in modo che il punto successivo alla traduzione più lunga corrisponda alla fine del record con tutte le traduzioni della stessa frase. Allora ci vogliono degli spazi, prima del punto conclusivo delle traduzioni più corte. Si potrebbe anche pensare a una spaziatura proporzionale dei caratteri/delle parole tra i punti iniziali comuni (alle diverse lingue) - i punti di fine frase. In questo modo tutti i punti di fine frase si troverebbero uno sopra l'altro, come in una riga punteggiata verticale. Tra i punti di fine frase il testo di ciascuna lingua si infittisce o si espande, in relazione alla lunghezza massima della frase in una data lingua. Probabilmente l'aggiunta di spazi di compensazione, alla fine delle versioni più corte della frase, rende il testo più leggibile. Provare per credere. La riga punteggiata verticale, fatta di punti di fine frase, è importante. .. (da continuare quando ho capito la descrizione in Inglese [en] to be continued when I fully understand the English description [it] ..) .. (T: LuigiBertuzzi)

[en] "Words etc. form a sentence." In this sentence there are two types of fullstops. The abreviating (after etc.) fullstop would have to marked, in order to differentiate it from the fullstop, which marks the end of sentence, - otherwise there is much chaos. Thus "words etc[.] form a sentence". That is extremely annoying, unfortunately written language is like that. It is the price to pay for global multilingual communication (almost could be a little more expensive). We have Wiki, pure technology, ductile by human hands. We have common intelligence, the common virtual social body, the darkness of our souls, there is so much left to understand. And we have language in some different codes (English, French, Tamahaq, mathematics etc.) as the connection to each other. Language has grown from us, it is a reflection, an image of us. Nevertheless it is not so volatile and much more easy to analyze. Language so far knows no making friends with programming weaknesses. May this remain that way please. End incompletely and cryptic
[de] „Worte usw. bilden einen Satz.“ In diesem Satz gibt es zwei Typen von Punkten. Den abkürzenden (nach usw.) müsste man markieren, um ihn von dem Punkt, der das Satzende markiert, zu unterscheiden - sonst gibt’ viel Chaos. Also „Worte usw[.] bilden einen Satz“. Das ist äußerst lästig, es ist aber leider so. Es ist der Preis für globale multipelsprachliche Kommunikation (’könnte ja fast ’n bisschen teurer sein). Wir haben Wiki, pure Technik, formbar durch Menschenhand. Wir haben gemeinsame Intelligenz, den gemeinsamen virtuellen sozialen Körper, das Dunkel unserer Seelen, da gibt es gar viel zu verstehen. Und wir haben als Verbindung zu einander Sprache in etlichen verschiedenen Codes (Englisch, Französisch, Tamahaq, Mathematik usw.). Sprache ist gewachsen aus uns, sie ist ein Abbild von uns, gleichwohl nicht so flüchtig und ungleich leichter analysierbar. Sprache kennt bislang keine Anbiederung an Programmierschwächen. Dies möge bitte so bleiben. Ende unfertig und kryptisch 033012 11:48

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